VGC16 Builds Megathread - Primals - Printable Version +- Pokemon Forever (http://pokemonforever.com) +-- Forum: POKéMON (http://pokemonforever.com/Forum-POK%C3%A9MON) +--- Forum: Competitive Pokemon Discussion (http://pokemonforever.com/Forum-Competitive-Pokemon-Discussion) +--- Thread: VGC16 Builds Megathread - Primals (/Thread-VGC-VGC16-Builds-Megathread-Primals)

VGC16 Builds Megathread - Primals - GiMYz - Jan 11, 2016 Welcome to VGC2016 everybody. Mmmm.. it's been one month since VGC16 rules have been announced so it's about time to take a look on what's been popular so far (on Pokemon Showdown, of course). VGC2016 introduced Primal Groudon and Primal Kyogre into the competitive scene. In this thread you can discuss about them and share your own personalized sets too. I'll post some sample sets that i had in storage and that i have tested with success during this month along with a short description and important offensive damage calculations. Primal-Groudon Standard Special Attacker Groudon-Primal @ Red Orb   Ability: Desolate Land   EVs: 252 HP / 4 Def / 236 SpA / 4 SpD / 12 Spe   Modest Nature   - Eruption   - Earth Power   - Flamethrower   - Protect How to use: set up Tailwind and start sweeping w/ Eruption. Use Earth Power to hit opposing P-Groudon. Use Flamethrower to ensure a KO when you are at less than half HP (when Eruption does less damage). You can't hit P-Kyogre hard with this set, so you specifically need partners to deal with it (ex. Ferrothorn) EV spread: Max HP, 236 SpA gives the same damage output as 252 SpA EVs, but with 12 Spe EVs we outspeed M-Mewtwo Y under Tailwind and speedcrep any other 4 Spe EVs Modest P-Groudon. Offensive damage calcs: 236+ SpA Primal Groudon Earth Power vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Primal Groudon: 204-242 (98.5 - 116.9%) -- 87.5% chance to OHKO 236+ SpA Primal Groudon Eruption (150 BP) vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Mega Kangaskhan in Harsh Sun: 175-207 (96.6 - 114.3%) -- 81.3% chance to OHKO 236+ SpA Primal Groudon Flamethrower vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Mega Kangaskhan in Harsh Sun: 141-166 (77.9 - 91.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO 236+ SpA Primal Groudon Earth Power vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Primal Kyogre: 63-75 (30.4 - 36.2%) -- 47.6% chance to 3HKO 236+ SpA Primal Groudon Eruption (150 BP) vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Xerneas in Harsh Sun: 178-211 (88.1 - 104.4%) -- 31.3% chance to OHKO 236+ SpA Primal Groudon Flamethrower vs. +2 4 HP / 0 SpD Xerneas in Harsh Sun: 72-85 (35.6 - 42%) -- guaranteed 3HKO 236+ SpA Primal Groudon Eruption (150 BP) vs. 4 HP / 0- SpD Mega Salamence in Harsh Sun: 106-126 (61.9 - 73.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO 236+ SpA Primal Groudon Earth Power vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Dialga: 188-224 (90.8 - 108.2%) -- 43.8% chance to OHKO TRGravity Set Groudon-Primal @ Red Orb   Ability: Desolate Land   EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 4 SpD   Brave Nature   IVs: 0 Spe   - Precipice Blades   - Overheat   - Rock Slide   - Protect How to use: Trick Room, Gravity, Helping Hand support (in one word: Mental Herb Cresselia). You'll spam Precipice Blades most of the times. Rock Slide is only there if you need the RNG GOD to help you for one turn. EV spread: Max HP, Max Atk, Brave and 0 IV speed to be as fast as possible and to hit as hard as possible under Trick Room. Offensive damage calcs: 252+ Atk Primal Groudon Precipice Blades vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Primal Groudon: 144-170 (69.5 - 82.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO 252+ Atk Primal Groudon Helping Hand Precipice Blades vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Primal Groudon: 216-254 (104.3 - 122.7%) -- guaranteed OHKO 252+ Atk Primal Groudon Precipice Blades vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Mega Kangaskhan: 108-127 (59.6 - 70.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO 252+ Atk Primal Groudon Precipice Blades vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Primal Kyogre: 117-138 (56.5 - 66.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO 252+ Atk Primal Groudon Helping Hand Precipice Blades vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Primal Kyogre: 174-205 (84 - 99%) -- guaranteed 2HKO 252+ Atk Primal Groudon Precipice Blades vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Xerneas: 112-133 (55.4 - 65.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO 0 SpA Primal Groudon Overheat vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Aegislash-Shield in Harsh Sun: 218-260 (130.5 - 155.6%) -- guaranteed OHKO (Gravity) 252+ Atk Primal Groudon Precipice Blades vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Mega Rayquaza: 108-127 (59.6 - 70.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO (Gravity) 252+ Atk Primal Groudon Helping Hand Precipice Blades vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Mega Rayquaza: 160-190 (88.3 - 104.9%) -- 31.3% chance to OHKO (Gravity) 252+ Atk Primal Groudon Precipice Blades vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Mega Salamence: 85-102 (49.7 - 59.6%) -- 99.6% chance to 2HKO (Gravity) 252+ Atk Primal Groudon Helping Hand Precipice Blades vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Mega Salamence: 129-153 (75.4 - 89.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO Mixed Set Groudon-Primal @ Red Orb   Ability: Desolate Land   EVs: 252 HP / 12 Atk / 4 Def / 236 SpA / 4 SpD   Quiet Nature   - Flamethrower   - Earth Power   - Precipice Blades   - Protect How to use: both Tailwind and Trick Room are viable because of its awkard speed (99 Speed stat, which is 198 under Tailwind but low enough to work under Trick Room too against faster teams). It outspeeds any Brave/Quiet 0 Spe IVs but it's slower than Modest/Adamant/Timid/Jolly variants. It doesn't pick any particular OHKO except against an opposing P-Groudon, but it does consistent damage with its moves. EV Spread: Same as the Special Set but we don't need Spe EVs so i put them into Atk. Offensive damage calcs: (see Special Set for Flamethrower and Earth Power) 12 Atk Primal Groudon Precipice Blades vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Primal Kyogre: 93-109 (44.9 - 52.6%) -- 22.3% chance to 2HKO 12 Atk Primal Groudon Helping Hand Precipice Blades vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Primal Kyogre: 139-165 (67.1 - 79.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO 12 Atk Primal Groudon Precipice Blades vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Xerneas: 88-105 (43.5 - 51.9%) -- 11.3% chance to 2HKO 12 Atk Primal Groudon Helping Hand Precipice Blades vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Xerneas: 135-159 (66.8 - 78.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO Fast P-Don Groudon-Primal @ Red Orb   Ability: Desolate Land   EVs: 12 HP / 4 Def / 236 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe   Timid / Naive Nature - Eruption   - Earth Power   - Flamethrower / Precipice Blades - Protect How to use: Tailwind support. Not my favorite set (personally, it's always been really annoying to face fast P-Dons) but it outspeeds a lot of things and you will most likely be the fastest Primal on the field (if no effects such as Tailwind/TR are active), so you will be able to deal a lot of damage and potentially get surprise KOs on your opponent's team. EV Spread: Standard. If you run a Naive nature just invest those 4 SpD EVs into Atk. Offensive damage calcs: see from sets above. Primal Kyogre Standard Special Attacker Kyogre-Primal @ Blue Orb   Ability: Primordial Sea   EVs: 252 HP / 4 Def / 236 SpA / 4 SpD / 12 Spe   Modest Nature   - Water Spout   - Ice Beam   - Origin Pulse   - Protect How to use: Tailwind, Quick Guard support. Basically, once your Tailwind is up, you want to spam Water Spout which is a OHKO on anything that's not heavily SpD invested (Calm Cresselia or Togekiss) or resisted (almost a guaranteed 2HKO on Ferrothorn). Protecting P-Kyogre from Sucker Punch/ESpeed/Brave Bird with Quick Guard is important because P-Kyogre doesn't have a great physical bulk, which means it will take a lot of damage from these attacks, drastically reducing the damage output from Water Spout. EV spread: same explanation as the Standard Special P-Groudon set. Speed creeping other Modest P-Kyogre in case of 1v1 scenarios is really important, because it allows you (if you have enough HP) to connect a 100% accurate Water Spout instead of relying on the 85% accuracy of Origin Pulse (which is still an important move if you need a KO when you are at low HP). You can also win a 1on1 against a slower Quiet or Modest P-Groudon even in Harsh Sun, because Ice Beam is a solid 3HKO on it while any non-boosted nature Prec.Blades doesn't have great chances to 2HKO a 252HP P-Kyogre. Offensive damage calcs: 236+ SpA Primal Kyogre Ice Beam vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Primal Groudon: 78-92 (37.6 - 44.4%) -- guaranteed 3HKO 236+ SpA Primal Kyogre Water Spout (150 BP) vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Mega Kangaskhan in Heavy Rain: 202-238 (111.6 - 131.4%) -- guaranteed OHKO 236+ SpA Primal Kyogre Origin Pulse vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Mega Kangaskhan in Heavy Rain: 148-175 (81.7 - 96.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO 236+ SpA Primal Kyogre Water Spout (150 BP) vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Xerneas in Heavy Rain: 205-243 (101.4 - 120.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO 236+ SpA Primal Kyogre Water Spout (150 BP) vs. +2 4 HP / 0 SpD Xerneas in Heavy Rain: 103-123 (50.9 - 60.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO 236+ SpA Primal Kyogre Ice Beam vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Mega Rayquaza in Strong Winds: 144-172 (79.5 - 95%) -- guaranteed 2HKO 236+ SpA Primal Kyogre Water Spout (150 BP) vs. 236 HP / 160+ SpD Thundurus in Heavy Rain: 184-217 (100 - 117.9%) -- guaranteed OHKO 236+ SpA Primal Kyogre Water Spout (150 BP) vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Ferrothorn in Heavy Rain: 89-105 (49.1 - 58%) -- 97.7% chance to 2HKO 236+ SpA Primal Kyogre Ice Beam vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Ferrothorn: 64-76 (35.3 - 41.9%) -- guaranteed 3HKO Fast P-Ogre Kyogre-Primal @ Blue Orb   Ability: Primordial Sea   EVs: 12 HP / 4 Def / 236 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe   Timid Nature   - Origin Pulse - Ice Beam   - Thunder   - Protect How to use: Tailwind. Try this set if your team struggles against opposing P-Kyogre in particular, otherwise i would always suggest Modest w/ Water Spout right now. EV spread: Timid Max Speed to be faster than other P-Kyogre. Optimized SpA and the rest in bulk. Offensive damage calcs: 236 SpA Primal Kyogre Thunder vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Primal Kyogre: 108-128 (52.1 - 61.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO 236 SpA Primal Kyogre Thunder vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Palkia: 69-82 (35 - 41.6%) -- guaranteed 3HKO FAQ 1) Special P-Groudon? Are you crazy? You are wasting P-Groudon's exorbitant base 180 Atk stat.. why? It would take me one day to list every reason why you shouldn't run an Adamant/Jolly P-Groudon, but i'll give you 3 valid arguments: 1st: Intimidate users such as M-Salamence and Landorus-T already give P-Groudon a matchup problem and you can usually find them in P-Kyogre teams. Do you want to worsen your matchup against P-Kyogre's teams more than this? 2nd: A physical set has to take advantage of the sweeping potential of Precipice Blades, which is able to 2HKO almost anything but you can't always rely on a 85% accurate move that's also affected by Intimidate and can't even hit half of the metagame right now (Flying types and Levitate users). The only way to bypass these problems is using Gravity + Helping Hand support. The fact is P-Groudon is still too slow to actually sweep in front of fast and hard or special hitters such as M-Rayquaza, M-Salamence, Special P-Groudon and so on. A Brave nature under Trick Room gives you the opportunity to be faster than these threats and possibly OHKO or nearly OHKO them with Helping Hand Precipice Blades without problems. 3rd: P-Groudon is by far the most used Pokemon in VGC16 right now. There's not much that can really OHKO a 252HP P-Groudon. LO Landorus-I, LO Kyurem-W, Specs Draco Meteors.. or P-Groudon itself with Earth Power. Relying on your own P-Don to OHKO the opponent's one is really valuable right now. A Special set means you can take advantage of Eruption in Harsh Sun too, which is.. really strong: 252+ SpA Primal Groudon Eruption (150 BP) vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Mega Kangaskhan in Harsh Sun: 177-208 (97.7 - 114.9%) -- 81.3% chance to OHKO 252 SpA Mega Charizard Y Overheat vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Mega Kangaskhan in Sun: 195-229 (107.7 - 126.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO Remember that Eruption is going to hit not one but two targets 2) Why no Fire Punch in the Physical Brave nature set? Overheat gets a clean OHKO on anything you hit for supereffective damage with this move and it's not affected by Intimidate. Oh and you don't take Iron Barbs + Rocky Helmet damage from hitting Ferrothorn.. which would be pitiful but useless, don't you think? 3) Isn't Quiet P-Kyogre an option too? Mmmm.. yes, actually there is a cool P-Kyogre + Bronzong (w/ TR, Skill Swap, Gravity and Gyro Ball) combo that makes P-Kyogre viable under Trick Room. 4) Every EV spread is almost a 252/252 spread. Why? VGC16 is really fast paced, that's why you want to maximize your damage output (unless you are running some sort of setup) to KO your opponent's team as fast as possible and punishing every defensive switch-in too. Even though P-Groudon and P-Kyogre are bulky, they are not immortal. That's why investing a lot in their HP stat allows them to survive in crucial situations so that you can strike back with one of their attack. Furthermore, you are going to play with 4 pokemon in your battle and two of them are probably going to support your Primal. Complicated spreads sometimes don't accomplish what your Pokemon really has to do (see VGC15 World Champion's team for example) I've tried to give you a short analysis on every set, to let you start teambuilding your own team with your own strategy and cores. Feel free to suggest your own sets too. I know there are many other sets (such as bulky ones) i have not seen yet or that i have not considered because might they fit in specific teams. RE: VGC16 Builds Megathread - Primals - Justin - Jan 11, 2016 Nice @GMX this is sick! RE: VGC16 Builds Megathread - Primals - jouzea - Jan 11, 2016 Ahh, this is good. I'm currently running a very hard thought/creative(/s) 252 Atk and Spe P-don right now. Attacks are: Eruption, Precipice Blades, Stone Edge. I must admit some clutch misses from PBlades should've won me some games. I'll try your Fast Special Pdon, the one you least like and see where it gets me. Anyways thanks @GMX