[RATE MY TEAM] Is it Finally Good Enough for VGC DB?

[RATE MY TEAM] Is it Finally Good Enough for VGC DB? - Printable Version

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Is it Finally Good Enough for VGC DB? - Tanner Harig - Feb 9, 2016

After numerous attempts at making a successful team, I have been running into tons upon tons of errors and mistakes. Of course, mistakes would be what is required to truly gain great success. @Marcusube @DanielJames @'Sir Absol' this is for you guys, cause you REALLY didn't like my last set up. Which is totally fine, I need all the comments and constructive criticism/critique (positive comments in order to help improve) I can get to make this team amazing! I finally got rid of Gliscor... Le sigh... My newest build and setup is looking a bit like this... All these pokemon have perfect IVs. This is for VGC Double Battles.

Pokemon: Aegislash
Ability: Stance Change (Duh)
Nature: Impish
Held Item: Weakness Policy
EV Spread: 252 Attack, 126 Defense, 126 SpDef
Moveset: Sacred Sword - King's Shield - Iron Head - Shadow Claw

Aegislash is a fantastic pokemon that is very well rounded considering it can change its battling style at literally any time. The moveset is wonderful. Any thoughts?

Pokemon: Cradily
Ability: Storm Drain
Nature: Bold
Held Item: Leftovers
EV Spread: 252 SpAtk, 126 Def, 126 SpDef
Moveset: Earth Power - Stockpile - Giga Drain - Sludge Bomb

Honestly, I love this Cradily. It builds up a huge wall on itself with stockpile x3. Then with leftovers, I automatically heal every turn. Storm Drain is nice to take water type attacks for other pokemon who can't handle it such as Talonflame. Energy Ball is good for getting a reliable heal when I need it, and Sludge Bomb is a very good attack with the ability to Poison the target.

Pokemon: Talonflame
Ability: Gale Wings
Nature: Adamant
Held Item: Life Orb
EV Spread: 252 Atk, 252 Speed
Moveset: Brave Bird - Flare Blitz - Roost - UTurn

When I got pokemon Y, my first pokemon I caught was a Fletchling. I saw it and fell in love with it. It was one of my main pokemon through out the whole game. I decided to put it on my competitive team. The life orb is there to boost attack power. Gale wings gives priority to Brave Bird and Roost. Roost is important in this build considering the fact that the life orb will slowly leech away at my health. UTurn is good to get Talonflame out of a risky situation.

Pokemon: Azumaril
Ability: Huge Power
Nature: Adamant
Held Item: ???
EV Spread: 252 HP, 252 Atk
Moveset: Aqua Jet - Protect - Play Rough - Knockoff

Azumarill also takes out opposing Lando-Ts easily with waterfall while play rough can help deal some nice damage as it provides good power and coverage. Aqua jet is there to finish of some pokemon that are left with a little bit of HP. Would protect be necessary? Right now it is holding bright powder. What would be a better option?

Pokemon: Clefable

Ability: Magic Guard

Nature: Bold

Held Item: ???
EV Spread: 252 Def, 252 SpDef

Moveset: Follow Me - Moonlight - Cosmic Power - Stored Power

This Clefable is basically the biggest stall I have, and one of the bulkiest pokemon on my team besides Cradily. I build up cosmic power to boost both of my defenses to the limit to the point where I can easily take good use of Follow Me by taking hits very well. Moonlight is for the HP restore when needed, then with Stored Power... Stored Power has a base attack stat of 20. It goes up every time I boost a stat. If I max out my Cosmic Power, that will mean 20x14, which gives us a whopping 280 base damage on stored power. Beyond comprehension.

Pokemon: Ampharos

Ability: Static (Mold Breaker)

Nature: Modest

Held Item: Mega Stone

EV Spread: 252 SpAtk, 126 HP, 126 Def

Moveset: Thunderbolt - Dragon Pulse - Rest - Sleep Talk

(I really want to have power gem somewhere in his moveset to have that rock type attack on my team)

I have always loved Ampharos. Despite his terrible speed, his other amazing stats make up for it. His Mega Evolution totally blows me away with amazing special attack and very nice defenses to boost. The added dragon typing may cause an issue with Fairy types, but that is a risk I must take. Its secondary dragon typing will help me check mons such as Talonflame, Rotom, and Charizard X. I love the setup, I just need a rock type attack somewhere on my team. I need help setting up a proper Ampharos. I don't know what to build it in; Special attack or defense. Then as for the Nature, it is currently benefiting his Special Attack. If it was bold it would be benefiting his Defense. Should I have protect on Ampharos?

Overall, this team doesn't seem too shabby. It has its kinks and issues, but all will be fixed in the end. I need some help with Ampharos and setting him up for success. But anyways, thanks for your time! All constructive criticism/critique (positive comments in order to help improve) is accepted! Smile

RE: Is it Finally Good Enough for VGC DB? - jouzea - Feb 10, 2016

Hi!

First, there's a post somewhere in the forums on a guide on how to post movesets so we can understand them easily. I think it's a post from marcusube or black117, can't remember. I'll give you the link when i find it. :D

Now on to the topic,

I'm assuming you don't want to use any legendaries as i don't see one. I was the same last year. Last year, I made sure to check the common legendaries that were dominating the scene. Even then, I still had trouble with CHALK teams used by an experienced trainer. This year however is a different story. The legendaries allowed are in a different level than last year.

Just to show you, let's see how your team does with the most common threat, Groudon.

[Image: Groudon_new-2.png]

For these computations i'm using a standard mixed groudon but I didn't put any EVs in Atk or SpA to showcase its raw power
(btw you don't have anything to cancel the harsh weathers)

Aegislash (you still have 4 spare useful EVs and i'm wondering why you don't have wide guard)

0+ SpA Primal Groudon Flamethrower vs. 0 HP / 126 SpD Aegislash-Shield in Harsh Sun: 152-182 (112.5 - 134.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO
+2 252 Atk Aegislash-Shield Sacred Sword vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Primal Groudon: 39-46 (22.1 - 26.1%) -- 5.7% chance to 4HKO
+2 252 Atk Aegislash-Shield Shadow Claw vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Primal Groudon: 45-54 (25.5 - 30.6%) -- guaranteed 4HKO
+2 252 Atk Aegislash-Shield Iron Head vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Primal Groudon: 25-30 (14.2 - 17%) -- possible 6HKO

Even with weakness policy off, Groudon will not get hurt by your aegislash moveset. I used a special attacker last year with wide guard, maybe give it a try.

Cradily (again you have 4 spare useful EVs)

0+ SpA Primal Groudon Eruption (150 BP) vs. 252 HP / 124 SpD Cradily in Harsh Sun: 126-148 (65.2 - 76.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after leftovers recovery
0 SpA Cradily Earth Power vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Primal Groudon: 64-76 (36.3 - 43.1%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

I know you meant giga drain when you said recovering hp, you may want to edit that. At least it survives groudon the first turn. It'll still knock you next turn though with 23.4% at most of your HP even at +3 SpD.

Talonflame (again you have 4 spare useful EVs)

0+ SpA Primal Groudon Eruption (150 BP) vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Talonflame in Harsh Sun: 99-117 (64.2 - 75.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
0+ SpA Primal Groudon Flamethrower vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Talonflame in Harsh Sun: 80-95 (51.9 - 61.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ Atk Life Orb Talonflame Brave Bird vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Primal Groudon: 71-86 (40.3 - 48.8%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

You survive another turn with talonflame, atleast with this bird you have priority and can attack groudon first. Talonflame is still viable this season but not with the role you're giving it. usually it protects the team from priority attacks through quick guard; set the pace through tailwind; then bravebird 'til it collapse. Without the surprise factor, if you roost with talonflame you'll get rekt by precipice blades or any other common ground moves. But talonflame at least can stay if you really want it on your team.

Azumaril (again you have 4 spare useful EVs)

0+ SpA Primal Groudon Earth Power vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Azumarill: 96-114 (46.3 - 55%) -- 62.5% chance to 2HKO
252+ Atk Huge Power Azumarill Play Rough vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Primal Groudon: 32-38 (18.1 - 21.5%) -- possible 5HKO

With no way to cancel drought, you lose water type attacks, and your best attack will be play rough.

Clefable (again you have 4 spare useful EVs)

0+ SpA Primal Groudon Flamethrower vs. 0 HP / 252 SpD Clefable in Harsh Sun: 102-121 (60 - 71.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
0 SpA Clefable Ice Beam vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Primal Groudon: 36-43 (20.4 - 24.4%) -- guaranteed 5HKO

Please remember the Groudon here is 0 Atk & SpA.

Ampharos (again you have 4 spare useful EVs)

0+ SpA Primal Groudon Earth Power/Precipice Blades vs. 126 HP / 8 SpD Mega Ampharos: 146-174 (80.6 - 96.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ SpA Mold Breaker Mega Ampharos Dragon Pulse vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Primal Groudon: 103-123 (58.5 - 69.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

It's your best "counter" to groudon. But take note that you are slower than groudon. When it comes to one on one, M-ampharos basically don't stand a chance.

Actually the only mon you have that'll move faster than a 252 Spe neutral groudon is talonflame. Meaning, everyone must take a hit first.

Now, this is only against groudon. He definitely have his backups. Most of your mons will be already below half HP by the time you take him down.

I don't want to offend you or discourage you or anything, I understand what you're trying to do, but this season is for the clash of the primals. You'll definitely need to catch a legendary before you come to the battle field. However, if you insists on playing without them, I suggest you get a feel of how the season is. Try your team in pokemon showdown vgc 2016. If you don't know, it's an online site for competitive battles. just recreate your team there, participate in battles and see what areas your team need to improve. The site is very newbie friendly so just try it. (When I say newbie friendly, I mean the site/program per se not the community. Not that the community is bad either but. hmm...how do you say it?......Well simply put, it's not as friendly as pokemonforever *this site is the best*)

With all that said, I hope you try it out. It'll deepen your understanding about a game we all love. Also it's fun

RE: Is it Finally Good Enough for VGC DB? - Marcusube - Feb 10, 2016

The team is slow, meaning a lot of the current metagame threats already beat you to the punch before you can attack.

Weakness Policy Aegislash isn't an effective set in competitive. It worked in VGC'14, struggled in VGC'15 and has no chance in this format. Your Aegislash is getting OHKOd before it can take advantage of the item. Use Life Orb or Leftovers and run a special set. I say special because Special attackers are less crippled by status and abilities than physical ones plus Shadow Ball has a higher base power than Shadow Claw. Not to mention that most Pokemon in this format are weaker in SpDef than Defense.

As I've said before, the speed of games in this format is way too overwhelming to be relying on step up in this manner (referring to Stockpile Cradily here). Furthermore, you have no means of recovery outside of Leftovers and Giga Drain which aren't very reliable in keeping you alive for very long. Earth Power doesn't hit anything outside of Primal Groudon (which Giga Drain hits at least neutrally) and it struggles to pick up a 3HKO on it either way. Poison is a poor choice for type coverage with it only hitting Fairy for super effective (I don't count grass because it is usually pair with a typing that resists Poison).

U-Turn takes Talonflame out of a risky situation but pushes one of your Pokemon into a risky one. This wouldn't be a problem if you had speed control (paralysis status, speed dropping moves like Icy Wind, Trick Room or Tailwind) which would allow you to at least attack first with the Pokemon you bring in after switching out with U-Turn.

Choice Band works best on that Azumarill set.

Good luck with the Clefable set I suppose. Just know that one hit pushes Clefable below 50% from most Pokemon in the meta and even after 1 Cosmic Power boost, Clefable is in range of fainting the following turn.

Aside from Charizard-X being able to OHKO Ampharos with Dragon Claw...

Ampharos gets blown back too easily by literally everything in the metagame. Even a Ferrothorn can 1v1 it with no issues.

But let's see how your team works out. I could be wrong after all

RE: Is it Finally Good Enough for VGC DB? - DanielJames - Feb 10, 2016

It's not that I didn't like your team, I just knew that if you weren't going to use any restricted legends you were already putting yourself at a disadvantage! I respect the fact that you want to use Pokémon you like instead of Pokémon that fit the status quo. However, I think you need to find a nice balance of using Pokémon that currently shape the Metagame and Pokémon that you want to use! With that said, I agree with everything Marcusube said above.

RE: Is it Finally Good Enough for VGC DB? - Marcusube - Feb 10, 2016

(Feb 10, 2016, 08:49 AM)DanielJames Wrote: It's not that I didn't like your team, I just knew that if you weren't going to use any restricted legends you were already putting yourself at a disadvantage! I respect the fact that you want to use Pokémon you like instead of Pokémon that fit the status quo. However, I think you need to find a nice balance of using Pokémon that currently shape the Metagame and Pokémon that you want to use! With that said, I agree with everything Marcusube said above.

Same as what he said. Your team is good but it can't function effectively in this format. To be honest, I would say to choose another format to play in (I took this decision myself because I found VGC'16 to be too restrictive - even though it literally allows everything). I'm not doing this to insult you or anyone and I take this advice myself, "Don't play in a metagame that makes you feel uncomfortable unless you plan to put your differences aside and dive into a whole new field"

RE: Is it Finally Good Enough for VGC DB? - DanielJames - Feb 10, 2016

(Feb 10, 2016, 11:59 AM)Marcusube Wrote:
(Feb 10, 2016, 08:49 AM)DanielJames Wrote: It's not that I didn't like your team, I just knew that if you weren't going to use any restricted legends you were already putting yourself at a disadvantage! I respect the fact that you want to use Pokémon you like instead of Pokémon that fit the status quo. However, I think you need to find a nice balance of using Pokémon that currently shape the Metagame and Pokémon that you want to use! With that said, I agree with everything Marcusube said above.

Same as what he said. Your team is good but it can't function effectively in this format. To be honest, I would say to choose another format to play in (I took this decision myself because I found VGC'16 to be too restrictive - even though it literally allows everything). I'm not doing this to insult you or anyone and I take this advice myself, "Don't play in a metagame that makes you feel uncomfortable unless you plan to put your differences aside and dive into a whole new field"

Exactly. No one can fault you for using the team that you want to use because you provide valid explanations as to why you use what you use. In theory, your team can work if you have the right match-ups. I just don't see your current team having much success against standard VGC teams as it stands. I tried to go against the grain last year and make creative teams, but I always only found limited success with them. When I used a CHALK team, I won way more games. I wish there was more diversity in the Metagame, but unfortunately that's not the case.

RE: Is it Finally Good Enough for VGC DB? - Absol - Feb 10, 2016

Well first i'd like to say I havent read anyone elses comments yet, so sorry if I say the same thing as someone else :v

You're definitely getting somewhere with the team, but theres still a few things that really pop out to me.

1.) You honestly need to replace cradily, it will 95% be taken out before it gets time to fully setup

2.) A P-Don may honestly sweep this whole team, you dont have anything to really counter it except MAYBE Ampharos if you throw helping hand on Clefable to support it. Even then, Ampharos is pretty fragile, especially compared to most of the pokemon used in the VGC 16 meta.

3.) As much as you're going to hate it, you'er gonna have to use a legendary. That's just simply put. If your team doesnt have some type of legendary youre not gonna survive that long throughout the "season". I personally think Choice Specs-Dazzling Gleam Xerneas would be a great replacement for Cradily.

4.) Aegislash. no. no. no. Even though its considered to be Uber by Smogon, it just flat out doesn't stand a chance in the new Meta. You'd be lucky to get a Flash Cannon off on a Sylveon if Aegislash managed to survive long enough for its turn.

Sorry if I sounded to harsh :v But who knows, you could do what that one guy did in VGC 14? Championships (idk if it was 14 or not, I dont remember tbh) and win using a Pachirisu x3

RE: Is it Finally Good Enough for VGC DB? - pritchman227 - Feb 10, 2016

Legendaries are in. Much like what Sir Absol says, you're going to have to use a legendary. You'll be dealing with Primals for sure, and if you are going against someone who is, your team isn't going to last long. And Cradily is just too weak, especially in this Meta.

Another problem is of course, Aegislash. Its too common now, and that means a lot of people have made plenty of counters against it. And all it would take is a speedy Giratina, or a Special hitting Groudon to knock it out before it can even make a move.

Clefable is a good choice, it can be a tank, so its a good choice. There isn't much to say against it, you might have a problem with Yveltal, but that is it.

Talonflame, poor poor Talonflame. It won't last long if your opponent has Primal kyogre out. hydro pump, Origin pulse are common moves people run on Kyogre. Would I keep Talonflame in my team? I wouldn't, not with the threat of primal kyogre being high.

Next is Ampharos. Now, since he is your mega, I would keep him in there for that reason. But be careful, a Primal Groudon would do heavy damage to it. Earthquake is also another problem, and most legendaries can run it, if I'm not mistaken. But I can see Ampharos being a good member on your team, his speed is a problem, and you know that, so I feel that you have an idea in mind when it comes down to it.

That's honestly it. The main point is legendaries play a huge role in this meta, so not having one isn't the best option. Hope this helps!

RE: Is it Finally Good Enough for VGC DB? - Johnnyspyguy - Feb 10, 2016

Well instead of Talonflame having a life orb it should have leftovers

RE: Is it Finally Good Enough for VGC DB? - Marcusube - Feb 10, 2016

I'm up front disagreeing with the 2 previous comments in relation to Talonflame. Talonflame is great for cleaning up, setting up Tailwind and taking out Pokemon such as Liepard, M-Gengar, Whimsicott, Crobat (possibly) and Amoonguss before they can pull any shenanigans. Life Orb is your best bet for an item for Talonflame