#572 Minccino

CooldRebellion · (This post was last modified: Aug 22, 2015, 11:09 PM by CooldRebellion.)

Hey everyone ive recently been getting into the VGC format, im still rather new to it but i wanted to try and build a trick room team. The main core of this team is running double trick room users in Mega Gardevoir and Gourgeist-Super. Those are the only two pokemon that i would really love to keep on this team but any other criticism such as changing Items/Pokemon/EV spreads/abilities will be taken into great consideration and i will test it out personally. So anyone willing to help i would greatly appreciate it.

Gardevoir (F) @ Gardevoirite
Ability: Trace
Level: 50
Shiny: Yes
EVs: 252 HP / 4 Def / 252 SpA
Quiet Nature
IVs: 0 Spe
- Hyper Voice
- Protect
- Psychic
- Trick Room

The main trick room setter of this team and a pretty common ev spread. 252 hp gives it enough survivability to take key special hits that would other wise ohko her and then gives her the ability to set the trick room up. 252 sp atk gives it the offensive power it needs to put up a lot of key OHKO's and 2HKO'S she is also one of the main offensive pokemon on this team and the 0 Speed IV's is so she can out speed other mega gardevoir.

Offensive Calcs

Defensive Calcs

Gourgeist-Super (F) @ Sitrus Berry
Ability: Frisk
Level: 50
Shiny: Yes
EVs: 140 HP / 156 Def / 212 SpD
Sassy Nature
IVs: 0 Spe
- Protect
- Shadow Sneak
- Trick Room
- Will-O-Wisp

The secondary trick room setter on the team. The EV spread is to allow her to take hits she otherwise wouldn’t be able to take and then allow her to set up the trick room. Once trick room is set up she will be faster than pretty much everything on the field and proceed to will o wisp anything on the field. Shadow sneak is her only offensive move and is there for priority and being able to pick up quick key kills that no one else on the team might be able to get.

Defensive Calcs

252 SpA Gengar Sludge Bomb vs. 140 HP / 212+ SpD Gourgeist-Super: 69-82 (38.7 - 46%) -- 73% chance to 3HKO after Sitrus Berry recovery
252 SpA Gengar Shadow Ball vs. 140 HP / 212+ SpD Gourgeist-Super: 122-146 (68.5 - 82%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Sitrus Berry recovery
252+ SpA Aegislash-Shield Shadow Ball vs. 140 HP / 212+ SpD Gourgeist-Super: 78-92 (43.8 - 51.6%) -- 1.2% chance to 2HKO after Sitrus Berry recovery
252 Atk Weavile Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 140 HP / 156 Def Gourgeist-Super: 116-140 (65.1 - 78.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 Atk Parental Bond Mega Kangaskhan Sucker Punch vs. 140 HP / 156 Def Gourgeist-Super: 102-122 (57.3 - 68.5%) -- 57.6% chance to 2HKO after Sitrus Berry recovery
252+ Atk Landorus-T Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 140 HP / 156 Def Gourgeist-Super: 98-116 (55 - 65.1%) -- 15.6% chance to 2HKO
252+ Atk Huge Power Mega Mawile Sucker Punch vs. 140 HP / 156 Def Gourgeist-Super: 128-152 (71.9 - 85.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Sitrus Berry recovery
252 Atk Mega Tyranitar Crunch vs. 140 HP / 156 Def Gourgeist-Super: 120-144 (67.4 - 80.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after sandstorm damage and Sitrus Berry recovery
252+ Atk Scrafty Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 140 HP / 156 Def Gourgeist-Super: 108-128 (60.6 - 71.9%) -- 93.8% chance to 2HKO
252+ SpA Hydreigon Flamethrower vs. 140 HP / 212+ SpD Gourgeist-Super: 146-174 (82 - 97.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Sitrus Berry recovery
144+ SpA Zapdos Heat Wave vs. 140 HP / 212+ SpD Gourgeist-Super: 72-86 (40.4 - 48.3%) -- 98% chance to 3HKO after Sitrus Berry recovery
252+ SpA Heatran Heat Wave vs. 140 HP / 212+ SpD Gourgeist-Super: 120-144 (67.4 - 80.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Sitrus Berry recovery
252 SpA Mega Manectric Flamethrower vs. 140 HP / 212+ SpD Gourgeist-Super: 96-114 (53.9 - 64%) -- 6.3% chance to 2HKO after Sitrus Berry recovery
252 SpA Thundurus-T Hidden Power Ice vs. 140 HP / 212+ SpD Gourgeist-Super: 68-80 (38.2 - 44.9%) -- 42.4% chance to 3HKO after Sitrus Berry recovery
4 SpA Cresselia Ice Beam vs. 140 HP / 212+ SpD Gourgeist-Super: 50-60 (28 - 33.7%) -- 33.5% chance to 4HKO after Sitrus Berry recovery
148+ SpA Ludicolo Ice Beam vs. 140 HP / 212+ SpD Gourgeist-Super: 72-86 (40.4 - 48.3%) -- 98% chance to 3HKO after Sitrus Berry recovery

Forge Heatran (M) @ Safety Goggles
Ability: Flash Fire
Level: 50
EVs: 252 HP / 4 Def / 252 SpA
Quiet Nature
- Earth Power
- Flash Cannon
- Heat Wave
- Protect

Heatran is the main offensive pokemon of this team. 252 Hp EVs is to allow it to utilize its natural bulk and eat up hits that otherwise destroy the rest of the team. 252 SpAtk EVs is obvious in order for it to hit most pokemon hard enough as it is the main offensive mon on the team. As for the item I’m kinda torn between running safety goggles or choice specs. Safety goggles is so that pesky spore users can’t shut heatran down at all and choice specs allows heatran to turn some of these potential 2HKO’s into OHKO’s.

Offensive Calcs

Defensive Calcs

Scrafty @ Assault Vest
Ability: Intimidate
Level: 50
EVs: 252 HP / 164 Atk / 92 SpD
Brave Nature
IVs: 0 Spe
- Drain Punch
- Fake Out
- Ice Punch
- Knock Off

Standard Scrafty set, i decided to go with assault vest instead of making him a bulky supporter for this team because i just feel like it plays better to my style of battling. Ice Punch is on here for Landorus, and Thundurus, both of these mons are troublesome to my team otherwise and a fake out user is just detrimental to helping me set up trick room safer.

Offensive Calcs

Defensive Calcs

Rotom-Wash @ Leftovers
Ability: Levitate
Level: 50
Shiny: Yes
EVs: 248 HP / 132 Def / 4 SpAtk / 120 SpD
Calm Nature
- Hydro Pump
- Protect
- Thunderbolt
- Thunder Wave

Rotom-W on my team provides me with speed control just in case I’m not able to get a trick room up or one of my trick room users faint, i opted for Thunder Wave for that reason and because i had a will o wisp user already on the team. I also needed someone who could come in on ground type attacks and with the ability levitate and its many resistances it was the perfect mon to add to my team.

Offensive Calcs

Defensive Calcs

Amoonguss (M) @ Rocky Helmet
Ability: Regenerator
Level: 50
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 4 SpA
Bold Nature
- Giga Drain
- Protect
- Rage Powder
- Spore

Amoongus rounds out my team and is here for being able to redirect attacks and allow me to set trick room up easier without worrying about single target attacks damaging my trick room users. The EV spread is pretty standard and allows me to switch into non super effective physical attacks seeing as how amoongus is built to take attacks on the physical side more. Amoongus also gives me the ability to set up spore and get safe switch ins.

Defensive Calcs

Marcusube · Aug 22, 2015, 08:54 PM

This post has WAYYY too many damage calcs. All you need is 3-5 relevant offensive and defensive damage calcs. Relevant meaning how the EV spread you chose helped to reach a certain benchmark for example having Mega Venusaur survive Brave Bird from Talonflame.

The RMT notice thread specifically states that if your team is not close to complete that you should put it under the "Request" prefix.

Where are the battle videos of your testing with this team? You're asking us to help you but you don't supply the required information.

I can't say much about this team because I can hardly pull the six mons together (seriously the damage calcs overshadow the team so much) and you are using a Pokemon that is unfamiliar in the format.

CooldRebellion · Aug 22, 2015, 10:29 PM

I dont know if its just me but i feel like you are coming down rather hard on me. First off i am still new to these forums so excuse me if theres too many damage calcs or if theres no battle videos. Ive played over 20 matches with it on showdown and wasnt able to get battle videos mainly cause im on a mac that isnt mine and i cant really save stuff on this mac . From the testing i have done with the team though i played roughly 25 matches with the team and managed to get near a 1300 rating so i would say i won more than i lost. Sorry for all the damage calcs tho i didnt know exactly how much was necessary to post and it would help people that are new to this forum if you are a little mindful about supplying battle videos since im sure that not everyone can supply them and ive seen other rate my team threads not supply them at all and still get their team rated.

Delta · Aug 23, 2015, 07:59 AM

If you want my personal opinion, don't run Trick Room. I only say that because it doesn't fit my style of play, and I haven't had much luck with it in the past. That being said, I know that Trick Room can be very strong, and if you want to stay with it, then be my guest. When it comes to EV's, it is always difficult. I don't want to spend the time making something elaborate for you, but I can say right now, a 252 252 spread really doesn't cut it at higher levels of competitive play. Charizard Y is very dangerous to your team, like, he will remove 4 out of the 6 members without hesitation. Then, Conkeldurr can clean up what Charizard Y can't KO. Landorus also seems to be a threat to your team. I would recommend looking for counters to these Pokemon. Maybe put in a Weakness Policy Tyranitar over Rotom, and replace Amoongus with a Milotic. I would recommend looking up sets for both Pokemon if you want to change it. Also, for Gardevoir EV's, there is bound to be a Trick Room set that has specific EV's to survive certain hits. Marcusube is not coming down hard on you, just enforcing a few things. We take the rules for RMT pretty seriously. One last thing, you will never be hit by an Aegislash in Shield Form. I would change your damage calculations for that.

CooldRebellion · Aug 23, 2015, 04:02 PM

(Aug 23, 2015, 07:59 AM)Delta Wrote: If you want my personal opinion, don't run Trick Room. I only say that because it doesn't fit my style of play, and I haven't had much luck with it in the past. That being said, I know that Trick Room can be very strong, and if you want to stay with it, then be my guest. When it comes to EV's, it is always difficult. I don't want to spend the time making something elaborate for you, but I can say right now, a 252 252 spread really doesn't cut it at higher levels of competitive play. Charizard Y is very dangerous to your team, like, he will remove 4 out of the 6 members without hesitation. Then, Conkeldurr can clean up what Charizard Y can't KO. Landorus also seems to be a threat to your team. I would recommend looking for counters to these Pokemon. Maybe put in a Weakness Policy Tyranitar over Rotom, and replace Amoongus with a Milotic. I would recommend looking up sets for both Pokemon if you want to change it. Also, for Gardevoir EV's, there is bound to be a Trick Room set that has specific EV's to survive certain hits. Marcusube is not coming down hard on you, just enforcing a few things. We take the rules for RMT pretty seriously. One last thing, you will never be hit by an Aegislash in Shield Form. I would change your damage calculations for that.

Thanks for all the advice ill take it all into consideration and see if i can fix some of those weaknesses. Also yea thanks for pointing out the aegislash calcs i actually went on the damage calculator and just went to the most common set and it came out like that i honestly didnt even notice it until you just pointed it out and ok wasnt sure if i was taking his words the wrong way or not but thanks for clearing that up. If i could supply battle videos i would have but i didnt want to just go and create a team on ORAS without testing it on showdown first because these mons for vgc take a lot of time to make. But again thanks for all the advice and ill look into your suggestions and give an update on what actually works out better Smile

Aether · Aug 23, 2015, 05:00 PM

I'm done a bit of analysis on your team and hope my suggestions help. Firstly, after running it through team magma builder, and just a quick analysis shows you have two main team weaknesses, ghost and flying. Playing the VGC meta this imposes quite a problem due to the imposing threats of M-salamence and M-gengar. I've read your calcs and one important point that you forgot is that trick room setters usually have to survive a 3HKO, not a 2HKO, (as trick room is a fairly readable play and therefore will be an easy target), whilst using up an attacking turn.

I know that a ghost type trick room setter seems like a good idea, to save you from that potential mega kang, but remember that it can still run scrappy fake-out shutting down trick room for a turn.
In other words, I'd probably scrap gourgeist all together. Firstly, your calculations seem to be a bit iffy and you've missed the biggest potential threats:

252 Atk Aerilate Mega Salamence Double-Edge vs. 140 HP / 156+ Def Gourgeist-Super: 372-440 (107.5 - 127.1%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252+ SpA Heatran Heat Wave vs. 140 HP / 212 SpD Gourgeist-Super: 338-398 (97.6 - 115%) -- 81.3% chance to OHKO
252 SpA Mega Charizard Y Heat Wave vs. 140 HP / 212 SpD Gourgeist-Super in Sun: 536-632 (154.9 - 182.6%) -- guaranteed OHKO

I tend to run cresselia as my set up, due to its sheer bulk:

Cresselia @ Mental herb
Ability: Levitate
Level: 50
EV's: 236 HP / 204 Def / 68 SpD
Relaxed nature
IVs: 0 Spe / 0 Atk
-Trick room
-Psyshock
-Ice beam
-Helping hand

The set-up: Metal herb provides relief from that pesky prankster taunt. Not sure whether to go psyshock or psychic, and whether to replace ice beam. EV spread to give it all around bulk.

Defensive calcs:

252 Atk Parental Bond Mega Kangaskhan Sucker Punch vs. 236 HP / 204+ Def Cresselia: 168-201 (38.1 - 45.6%)
252 SpA Mega Charizard Y Heat Wave vs. 236 HP / 68 SpD Cresselia in Sun: 205-243 (46.5 - 55.2%)
252 SpA Mega Salamence Draco Meteor vs. 236 HP / 68 SpD Cresselia: 153-180 (34.7 - 40.9%)
252 SpA Pixilate Mega Gardevoir Hyper Voice vs. 236 HP / 68 SpD Cresselia: 172-204 (39 - 46.3%)

Knowing that cress can survive any potential immediate threats means that, though you'll be running it most of the time, a move slot can be open for gardevoir. Running trick room on gardevoir isn't a bad idea, but personally i'd run HP ground to deal with heatran, metagross or aegislash (common threats) or shadow ball (no heatran coverage).

Amoongus also has less use as a physical wall in recent meta, it used to be nice for being a switch in for M-kang but realistically has little practical use.

The set i started using is:

Amoonguss @ Sitrius Berry
Ability: Regenerator
EVs: 180 HP / 92 Def / 236 SpD
Sassy Nature
IVs: 0 Spe
- Giga Drain
- Rage Powder
- Spore
- Protect

the calcs can be seen here: http://pokemonforever.com/Thread-VGC-VGC...t=amoongus

A few more minor suggestions would be:

w-o-w on rotom rather than thunder wave, A defensive natured rotom favors this as it grants more survivability, as realistically its still not a massive offensive threat even with speed control, and also is a move that can be used effectively in trick room.
Potentially changing safety goggles on heatran to shuca berry / air balloon. Breeloom becomes less of a threat as under TR heatran outspeeds and can OHKO (without sash), and heatwave isn't redirected by amoongus' rage powder anyway.

Let me know if you have anymore questions / help with the team. Hope this was useful Smile

Marcusube · Aug 23, 2015, 07:46 PM

All in all your team is 100% solid. I've first hand tested it and I have won more matches than I've lost while using it. The only problem is that I rarely brought Gourgeist to games. I would recommend running Mental Herb or Kasib Berry on Gourgeist along with Seed Bomb, Light Screen or some other support move cause to be honest I NEVER needed to use Will-o-Wisp. Light Screen is good for reducing damage done by special attackers on your team for example, Earth Power won't kill Heatran, Shadow Ball/Flash Cannon from Life Orb Aegislash won't take out Gardevoir and Heat Wave won't stop Amoonguss. Here is the set I'd suggest running

Gourgeist-Super @ Kasib Berry
Ability: Frisk
Level: 50
EVs: 236 HP / 56 Atk / 156 Def / 60 SpD
Sassy Nature
IVs: 0 Spe
- Light Screen
- Seed Bomb
- Shadow Sneak
- Trick Room

EVd to always OHKO Gastrodon and Swampert with Seed Bomb as well as survive Mega Salamence's Hyper Voice at 252 Special Attack EVs neutral nature.

Your team is really weak to Aegislash and Salamence. It's really hard for you to get a good matchup especially if both mons are on the field at the same time. I'd drop Amoonguss and Rotom-W for Milotic and Thundurus. Reason being, Amoonguss was easy death fodder for opposing Gardevoirs, Alakazams, Talonflames and Salamences. Rotom-W without the Sitrus Berry really made it less efficient especially without having Will-o-Wisp as an option. Milotic has more Special Defense as well as it has access to Icy Wind for speed control and Scald for water coverage. Recovery is also a nice suit on Milotic as it allows it to stay around longer in matches. Thundurus has prankster Thunder Wave and Taunt to effectively slow down mons that either want to stop your Trick Room set up or just annihilate your mons completely.

http://www.teammagma.net/teambuilder/?28...42|350|485

This is what your team would look like. Also a fun thing to note is that Gourgeist gets access to Rock Slide so that is an option to deal with Flying types however I don't really recommend it.

CooldRebellion · Aug 23, 2015, 08:00 PM

Thanks for the tips guys, i appreciate all the advice and tips and will definitely look into your suggestions in order to make the team better. That gourgeist set actually seems interesting so ill definitely be testing that out and it free's up the sitrus berry for another mon to use so thank you for that. You all have been very helpful Smile

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