Mar 28, 2016, 02:05 AM (This post was last modified: Mar 28, 2016, 11:54 PM by marumaruko.
Edit Reason: added something
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I know this sounds probably gimmicky as hell and it probably will be, but Trevenant is one of my favourite Pokemon ever and I used him in the TCG already (a long time before the current deck with Wally became big) and I wondered if there is no combination to make him useful in a VGC double battle format.
I'm still at the beginning of figuring things out, but I wondered if I can collect ideas and thoughts from experienced players here. Sort of like a brainstorming session. I haven't been very active recently and I apologize for that, but I hope some people can write down some thoughts, ideas, criticism, whatever.
So far I'm considering a Trevenant team with both abilities - Harvest and Natural Cure. No definite movesets, EV or IV spreads yet.
Here are both sections:
Harvest Trevenant:
pros:
will produce Lum/Sitrus Berries every turn, if sun is shining
useful for stalling, if EV/IV is set to defensive focus
"Rest" will keep Trevenant alive for a long time, unless OHKO'd
Forest's Curse can give Sun creator(if Fire)/ice/flying/bug types easier KOs
with Forest's Curse + Poison Jab and appropriate spread good damage output
cons:
the Draught Pokemon are not the fastest
Trevenant is even slower, probably would need Trick Room set-up in any case
fastest sunny day Pokemon (no mega) is Ninjask, followed by the likes of Crobat and Weavile --> waste of a turn
if you think of Forest's Curse+Poison Jab+Rest - only one spot is left (Wood Hammer? Leech Horn? Leech Seed?)
since Trevenant's defensive stats aren't the best, could probably use a Helping Hand user
Natural Cure Trevenant:
pros:
Trevenant could always switch out and heal possible status
gives team more flexibility
doesn't rely as much on Sunny Day/Drought partner
Forest's Curse can give fire/ice/bug/flying types easier KOs
with Forest's Curse + Poison Jab and appropriate spread good damage output/checks Fairies
cons:
who would waste a move like Will-O-Wisp or Thunder Wave on Trevenant?
prone to Rocks, Spikes and the likes due to frequent switching out if hurt by status
demands Trick-Room set-up
can't stall, only frequent healing option would be "Ingrain" which makes Trevenant practicly defenseless
since Trevenant's defensive stats aren't the best, could probably use a Helping Hand user
Both variants would probably require different EV/IV spreads and different move sets. I added some ideas in the pros/cons. Let me know if you can think of better sets.
As for possible team mates. So far I thought of the following:
Crobat (not viable in Trick-Room scenario)
Weavile ( "" )
That's very basic for now and should cover the first two partners of Trevenant. As for the remaining 3, I haven't thought about them yet, but will probably update this post or just post more ideas in the replies. If some of you have some ideas, just post them away. Always open for criticism, as well (but consider that I'm not trying to win championships, just have some fun and of course try to win at least sometimes )
Mar 28, 2016, 04:12 PM (This post was last modified: Mar 28, 2016, 04:49 PM by marumaruko.
Edit Reason: more information
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Thanks for the stats! That was really useful.
Before I get into damage calculations, here is a short overview of team members I think of including
Trevenant @ Sitrus/Lum Berry
Ability: Harvest
Level: 50
EVs: unclear, probably as bulky as possible with some Att investment 0 SPE IVs
unclear Nature
- Trick-Room
- Horn Leech/Poison-Jab
- Forest's Curse (support for legendaries)/ ?
- Protect/Rest
Trevenant would start the battle and set up Trick-Room as fast as possible. Ice Beam from Kyogre leads would shut down the whole team, though, I'm afraid.
Machamp @ Lum/Sitrus Berry
Ability: No Guard
Level: 50
EVs: 252 HP / 188 Att / 68 DEF 0 SPE IVs
Brave Nature
- Quick Guard (support for Trevenant to set-up Trick-Room)
- Ice Punch (Flying Type coverage)
- Dynamic Punch (Confusion)
- Protect
He's there to basically ensure Trevenant gets at least the Trick-Room to go and at the same time can hit quite hard against Flying Types and can confuse Kangaskhan and anyone else, besides Ghost Pokemon.
Mawile @ Mawilite
Ability: Intimidate
Level: 50
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Att / 4 SpD 0 SPE IVs
Adamant Nature
- Play Rough
- Sucker Punch
- Iron Head
- Protect
It was suggested in the statistics for Trevenant usage and I think that its slow speed makes it perfect on a Trick-Room team, plus the cover for Xerneas (not sure if enough) and Play Rough for opposing Dragons. Sucker Punch is probably more situational.
Yveltal @ Weakness Policy/Leftovers
Ability: Dark Aura
Level: 50
EVs: unclear - especially because it's a Trick-Room team
unclear Nature
- Dark Pulse/Knock Off
- Oblivion Wing
- Snarl / Tailwind / Foul Play / Sucker Punch
- Protect
Gives Mawile a boost for Sucker Punch and should somehow work with Groudon, probably with Tailwind in a mixed Trick-Room team although I don't know how viable mixed Trick-Room teams are. Oblivion Wing is obvious and Dark Pulse or Knock Off to complement the boost of Dark Aura. Could trouble Kyogre with the right spread.
Groudon @ Red Orb
Ability: Desolate Land
Level: 50
EVs: unclear wether Physical or Special spread
unclear Nature
- Precipice Blade
- Rock Slide/Stone Edge
- Overheat / Fire Punch
- Protect / Roar
The most puzzling entry for me in this incomplete team so far, but it works great with Yveltal as a partner to speed-up against slower Groudons and Xerneas perhaps. The physical build looks not quite feasible to me, because there are too many phyiscal attackers already, and Fire Punch wouldn't deal out enough damage, I feel. Precipice Blade is wonderful though, as it doesn't hit your team partner (in case it's not Yveltal anymore). Roar could be also a nice defence mechanism against charging Xerneas opponents and anything that I'm not prepared for.
General:
This team is very Physical Attack heavy and doesn't contain a Special Attacker and is weak to Special Attacking Pokemon especially.
Probably I will need a second Trick-Room set up (Aromatisse perhaps??), as well in the very plausible case that Trevenant won't make it all too often. If I go with a mixed team that might not even be necessary though.
It also lacks a 6th member. This is where my creativity fails me and lack of experience comes to truth. Any ideas?
Don't know what Clefairy and Landorus-Therian would do in this team (as the above stats showed as potential team members)
Starting things off, since your team is based on using Forest Curse, you are limited to using either Smeargle or Trevenant.
Since you're using Trevenant, you need to first account for it's weaknesses. It is very weak to Ice and Fire attacks as well as the more rare Dark, Flying and Ghost. Not to mention getting up Trick Room will prove to be difficult with the amount of damage that can be done in one turn.
Something like this would work. Seeing as how Fire, Dark and Flying are pretty much guaranteed to OHKO seeing as how they all come from legendaries who get STAB, Ice is your safest call against it. Alternatively, you can run Shadow Claw or Wood Hammer on Trevenant as attacks. Wood Hammer should do a good amount to pretty much anything since it comes from a base 110 attack. Now, you don't necessarily have to run Trick Room (as a matter of fact, Trick Room + Forest's Curse is extremely gimmicky and harder to pull off). Instead you can run Skill Swap, Leech Seed, Role Play or Destiny Bond to support your team better
Now seeing as how Forest's Curse adds Grass to the opponent's typing, you want attackers that take advantage of this. Primal Groudon and Mega Rayquaza are easy choices here. Secondarily, you have the option of Yveltal, Xerneas, Dialga or Palkia as viable support attackers.
You will need a Fake Out user or a status spreader to allow Trevenant to get it's moves off.
That's about all I can come up with right now.
Trevenant, M-Gengar, P-Groudon, Yveltal, Liepard and a random 6th Pokemon can work for this kind of gimmick
What about a move that is super effective against grass types? My idea is to use Forest's Curse and turn the opponent into a grass type, then use a super effective move to do loads of damage
Life only happens once. Make the most out of it.
I main Tracer for some reason...
My Friend Safari is Flying with Pidgey, Fletchiender and Swanna. Feel free to add me!
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(Mar 30, 2016, 08:18 PM)Johnnyspyguy Wrote: What about a move that is super effective against grass types? My idea is to use Forest's Curse and turn the opponent into a grass type, then use a super effective move to do loads of damage
That's why you have team mates that carry super effective hits against Grass types. In the case you can't get a Forest Curse off, you're stuck with a weak non-STAB attack (Poison Jab, X-Scissor etc.) whereas if you have Wood Hammer, you have a strong STAB attack to pull off
@Marcusube Good point. Maybe Primal Groudon would be a good partner?
Life only happens once. Make the most out of it.
I main Tracer for some reason...
My Friend Safari is Flying with Pidgey, Fletchiender and Swanna. Feel free to add me!
Also, my name is Hayden... Why am I Johnnyspyguy?
Groudon-Primal @ Red Orb
Ability: Desolate Land
Level: 50
EVs: 252 HP / 252 SpA / 4 SpD
Quiet Nature
IVs: 0 Spe
- Protect
- Eruption
- Earth Power
- Flamethrower
Liepard @ Focus Sash
Ability: Prankster
Level: 50
EVs: 252 HP / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Fake Out
- Encore
- Foul Play
- Thunder Wave
Yveltal @ Black Glasses
Ability: Dark Aura
Level: 50
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Protect
- Sucker Punch
- Knock Off
- Foul Play
Talonflame @ Life Orb
Ability: Gale Wings
Level: 50
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Tailwind
- Brave Bird
- Taunt
- Quick Guard
Boom, just made a Forest Curse team on Showdown and I've gotten to 1383 on the Showdown ladder
Coba Berry is to sponge the damage from Mega Salamence's Hyper Voice, however, this goal is slightly irrelevant as the latter doesn't OHKO. Perhaps a Occa Berry would work here. I don't suggest Yache either because Ice Beam Primal Kyogre has been rare (meaning people usually just Water Spout). Colbur Berry works here for Yveltal and Weavile. Really, just pick the berry you feel you need most
At the end of testing I realized that Trevenant absolutely needs Trick Room to pull off its gimmick plus Trick Room always served as a late game win card. This Trevenant is EVd so that Wood Hammer has a 50% chance to OHKO 252 HP Primal Kyogre and the rest was invested into special bulk.
Groudon works hand in hand with this, however, please note that Trevenant + Groudon lead leaves you open to Mega Rayquaza, Mega Salamence, Talonflame and Ho-oh. You can run Stone Edge to mitigate this. Its up to you to fix the Groudon spread because I didn't make it specific to anything.
Forest Curse + Eruption has only been used once out of the 20 games I've played with this team. The main issue is getting the move off plus predicting switch ins from Primal Kyogre
Mega Gengar is added to further support the core as Sludge Bomb hits Grass for super effective. Also note that I decided on Trick Room Gengar as it supports the core better than a fast one. The EV spread allows Mega Gengar to outspeed Mega Mence by 1 point. This means that non Mega Gengar will underspeed Mega Mence in Trick Room allowing you to get an attack off. Getting up Trick Room with Gengar hasn't proven very risky when it is paired with either Yveltal or Groudon. Taunt hasn't been useful at all. Switch for Skill Swap or Destiny Bond
Liepard is for disruption. Haven't used it much, however, the times I have it has done its job of stopping Smeargle, KOing Pokemon with Fake Out and Foul Play as well as crippling Pokemon with Thunder Wave. Fake Tears is an option over Thunder Wave to allow Mega Gengar to clean up with Sludge Bomb
Yveltal supports the team by providing priority as well as a strong hitting Knock Off and Foul Play. It also possess immunity to Ground which is nice.
Talonflame is pretty useless but I have it here as a filler.
This team has been pretty fun in usage so I want to contribute it to this discussion and to hear your views on it so we can further improve on this strategy together
Mar 31, 2016, 10:15 AM (This post was last modified: Mar 31, 2016, 10:35 AM by marumaruko.
Edit Reason: Added content.
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Wow guys, this is some great input! Thanks a lot.
I also realised that Quick Guard only protects from attacks with priority which makes it useless unless Talonflame is the opponent, so Machamp is definitely out.
In case I get off Trick-Room I don't see people switching in generally faster Flying types, so your idea with the Occa Berry is actually pretty good.
Wood Hammer to deal out stab damage sounds great, too. Since I won't rely on trying desperately to keep Trevenant alive via Harvest+Lum+Rest the recoil damage and further use might be malleable.
I can see Talonflame as a back-up, because it has the tailwind in case Trick Room ends and I can't set it up again, but I wondered if it wouldn't fit better on Yveltal and so makes space for another team member, because a lot of people use Xerneas and Groudon and I'm not sure I have enough to answer unless I can attach the Grass Type on Xerneas.
Groudon this way will definitely need Stone Edge, since I have nothing against Flying types in case Forest's Curse is gone or Trevenant is out so I wonder if a Therian Landorus could add some more variety to the team, as well. Not sure though. His role seems very one-sided in VGC 16. Thundurus perhaps? That way I could give it Taunt and add Destiny Bond to M-Gengar.
Liepard's disruption is very welcome, because unless they ban Smeargle at some point it's going to continue frustrating opponents.
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