Viability and Frequency of Sun Teams for VGC 2015?

[Black117]

(Mar 31, 2015, 09:47 AM)MagnusHexem Wrote: Huh...you know, I've rarely seen Pledge moves.  And I see Charizard Y A LOT!  Way more than Politoed.  Also, I don't quiet see why you would want to use Ninetales as a Choice Scarfed Physical Attacker.  From my experience with it in the past, it works better as support, being able to take many special hits, and even without Special Attack investment, Flamethrower or Fire Blast from it does massive damage if super effective.  I liked using Will-O-Wisp and Hex on it as some type of support.

Also, "All Politoed needs is to get Scald burns..."  That's a 30% chance you're leaning on?

Normally when I see a Mega Charizard Y team, it is only with standard Pokemon like Landorus-T, Whimsicott, Terrrakion, Thundurus, or etc. My only concern here is you can't just simply call it a "sun team" without having the entire team incorporate weather as a primary or secondary option, not just one or
two Pokemon taking advantage of the sun indirectly. The only Pokemon I can honestly think which benefit from Drought are Moonlight Cresselia, Landorus-T/Terrakion being able to tank Water hits better, or a Pokemon like Hydreigon who use the Drought to boost its non-STAB fire moves. Honestly, I see no reason not to consider these standard teams with only Charizard Y a "full fledged" sun team compared with pledge teams (Charizard Y and Chlorophyll Venusaur with Fire/Grass Pledge) or a Flower Gift Drought team (Ninetales and Cherrim).   Charizard Y will likely be the main user/recipient of its own ability just to overpower unprepared teams with Drought boosted fire attacks. That said, this doesn't undermine Charizard Y as a bad weather setter at all since it able to keep the sun thanks to the Mega Evolution/switching mechanic. Most weather teams have to wait a till turn 3 max (given Charizard protects) to change Drought to rain/sand/hail or resort with manual weather changing move to counteract Drought. Charizard Y is a great weather setter frankly,but you can't just slap it in on any team and automatically call it a sun based team itself without having a few archetype pieces at least.

I should probably explain why I suggested Choice Scarf Ninetales as well. I have seen it before on the higher ladder on Battle Spot where a Bisharp was able to knock out my Landorus-T (had investment to survive +1 Life Orb sucker Punch) before Alex Ogloza started using it on his Battle Spot series.  First off, Cherrim's Flower Gift ability allows it and as well as its allied Pokemon to receive a 1.5x boost in both its attack and special defense which can come in handy in certain situations. While you might think that Ninetales should be suited as a special attacker but remember that its base 76 physical attack which is just 5 points off than its 81 special attack. I can compare this similar situation with Greninja now its has a strong/viable physical attacks being Gunk Shot, Low Kick and Ice Punch and can OHKO or severely dent any target with its 95 and 103 offensive stats with its Protein ability. However, Ninetales is no Greninja since it has an atrocious movepool. Part of the reason people use physical Ninetales is partly to take advantage of the the Flower Gift boost and surprise the opponent for the massive damage. Now take into consideration the following: a strong fire move like Flare Blitz, the pseudo +1 attack you'll receive upon Cherrim switching in, and the sun boost. Here's a few damage calculations comparing Sun/Flower Gift boosted STAB Flare Blitz from Ninetales from just a regular max special attack Ninetales using an inaccurate Fire Blast.

Flower Gift Flare Blitz in sun (max attack) -  (I gave Ninetales +1 to replicate Flower Gift boost)

+1 252+ Atk Ninetales Flare Blitz vs. 212 HP / 128 Def Thundurus in Sun: 202-238 (111.6 - 131.4%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252+ Atk Ninetales  Flare Blitz vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Landorus-T in Sun: 130-154 (78.7 - 93.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
+1 252+ Atk Ninetales Flare Blitz vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Mega Kangaskhan in Sun: 178-211 (98.3 - 116.5%) -- 93.8% chance to OHKO
+1 252+ Atk Ninetales Flare Blitz vs. 248 HP / 116+ Def Cresselia in Sun: 127-150 (56.1 - 66.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

Now for Fire Blast in sun

252+ SpA Ninetales Fire Blast vs. 212 HP / 96 SpD Thundurus in Sun: 123-145 (67.9 - 80.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ SpA Ninetales Fire Blast vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Mega Kangaskhan in Sun: 114-135 (62.9 - 74.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ SpA Ninetales Fire Blast vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Landorus-T in Sun: 136-162 (82.9 - 98.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ SpA Ninetales Fire Blast vs. 248 HP / 0 SpD Cresselia in Sun: 93-109 (41.1 - 48.2%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ SpA Ninetales Fire Blast vs. 248 HP / 116+ SpD Cresselia in Sun: 76-91 (33.6 - 40.2%)

You can clearly see the damage output comparing Flare Blitz and Fire Blast is substantial thanks to the Flower Gift boost from Cherrim while in battle (btw you can still receive when it switches in as well). Thanks to the Flower Gift, Ninetales has a huge chance to OHKO standard Mega Kangaskhan, standard bulky Thundurus-I, as well as severely damage Cresselia and Landorus-T (though unpractical) potentially at any point while sun is up. Max special attack Ninetales can't even get these two kills without maybe an item modifier or a Calm Mind but that will take a full turn to setup one. Most Cherrim/Ninetales teams have their Ninetales run a Choice Scarf to 1) outpace standard Choice Scarf adamant Landorus-T and 2) get off a Flower Gift attack immediately while the sun is still in place. Remember Cherrim's overall defenses are considerably low but these teams have to risk making these switch plays as oppose to fast rain mode teams. I admit this is a weird gimmick but the damage output that catches opposing teams off guard thanks to the Flower Gift. Once Cherrim gets in safely (hopefully) it can provide additional support like Heal Pulse or Helping Hand to aid its partner Pokemon. Charizard Y can see some similar results since it has a strong physical movepool but I think there are better Mega Evolutions to take advantage of the +1 in attack and special defense like Mega Kangakhan or Mega Salamence. In addition, Ninetales has no item restriction so anyone can slap any item they desire like a Choice Scarf to get the jump on threats like Landorus-T, Thundurus, Mega Metagross, etc. Obviously I just hinted the main strength/weakness of Ninetales/Cherrim teams as they are "forced" to use these two while making pivot switches. At best, this type of weather offense can be hyper offensive as you have to make the sun turns count. Defensive Ninetales is fine with Will-O-Wisp support as mentioned, but the VGC metagame atm is turning a bit hyper offensive and Ninetales isn't as defensive compared with other Fire types like Heatran, Rotom-H or Arcanine. Drought boosted fire attacks will still hit hard don't get me wrong but it will be for 2HKOs most of the time. Again this physical Ninetales doesn't have the same role as maybe the set MagumHexem said but it takes advantage of the Flower Gift boost and power up its only strong physical fire move in Flare Blitz.

On that last note regarding "Scald Burns", everyone who is using a bulky water type Pokemon with the move Scald will likely go for the move itself thanks to its spammable nature and, yes the potential to get a burn on a physically oriented Pokemon or tank for residual damage. This is almost the same thing as why Rock Slide is opted because of the potential flinch factor on both the opponent's Pokemon by 30% can just decided the game. That's literally the point of using the move Scald itself otherwise someone plans on using Surf (which hits everything on the field), a low accuracy Hydro Pump, or even low power single target moves like Water Pulse, Waterfall, Aqua Tail, etc. I'm just giving examples of "how to" use support Politoed since ORAS given it back two previous tutor moves in Icy Wind and Helping Hand which I did mentioned.

[iflytoohigh]

Wow, Black117! What a very well thought out and detailed reply to MagnusHexem!

I, for one, appreciate the time that it took you to type up this explanation. I'm still working out a few final kinks for a potential sun team utilizing advice I've received in this thread for Cherrim and Ninetails. I'd love your opinion on it once it's finished! ^^

xx

[MagnusHexem]

Well, when you put it that way, then physical Ninetales makes sense. I thought you were talking about Ninetales in general. I've never seen anyone talk about Cherrim and Ninetails before, let alone Ninetails (in Gen. 6.)

But this Scald thing....I'm about to go on a rant here. I'll just put it this way: If you're using Scald or Rock Slide for Hax, you're playing Pokemon for the wrong reason. We have Pokemon forums like these for a reason. Pokemon is mostly skill-based. If you want to play it for RNG, then you might as well be using Double Team or Minimize. It worked for Aaron Traylor...although he is just a giant luck-sack.

[KevMan]

(Apr 13, 2015, 07:57 AM)MagnusHexem Wrote: Well, when you put it that way, then physical Ninetales makes sense.  I thought you were talking about Ninetales in general.  I've never seen anyone talk about Cherrim and Ninetails before, let alone Ninetails (in Gen. 6.)

But this Scald thing....I'm about to go on a rant here.  I'll just put it this way: If you're using Scald or Rock Slide for Hax, you're playing Pokemon for the wrong reason.  We have Pokemon forums like these for a reason.  Pokemon is mostly skill-based.  If you want to play it for RNG, then you might as well be using Double Team or Minimize.  It worked for Aaron Traylor...although he is just a giant luck-sack.

Bro your post sounds so hostile and salty, lol. I know it was directed to Black while you two are discussing the viability of this sort of comp and some moves but I don't think you have the right to really say whether or not someone is playing for the right or wrong reason. And my question is why are you here on the forums if you're going to be so condescending about someone else's thoughts and opinions? The forums are here for a reason but it looks like maybe you don't fully know what they are.

Just something to think about. I know your comment was in direct response to someone else's, but as someone casually reading through this thread you made yourself seem like a major ***.

[Black117]

(Apr 13, 2015, 07:57 AM)MagnusHexem Wrote: Well, when you put it that way, then physical Ninetales makes sense.  I thought you were talking about Ninetales in general.  I've never seen anyone talk about Cherrim and Ninetails before, let alone Ninetails (in Gen. 6.)

But this Scald thing....I'm about to go on a rant here.  I'll just put it this way: If you're using Scald or Rock Slide for Hax, you're playing Pokemon for the wrong reason.  We have Pokemon forums like these for a reason.  Pokemon is mostly skill-based.  If you want to play it for RNG, then you might as well be using Double Team or Minimize.  It worked for Aaron Traylor...although he is just a giant luck-sack.

I read Aaron Taylor's recent Nugget Bridge article where he admits having Minimize on his Clefable was a mistake and would have "swapped it for Icy Wind in a heartbeat". I entirely agree with you that people shouldn't rely entirely on luck-based strategies like "setup" Minimize teams or Dark Void but the problem is "hax" is just part of the game. Taylor never actually spammed Minimize and is most of the battles he used it once, it got immediately double targeted. Maybe my comparison to Rock Slide flinches to Scald burns might sound far-fetch to some but remember that Rock Slide users have a chance to miss on one or more Pokemon. Unless I absolutely want to beat Charizard Y with Terrakion/Lando-T with Rock Tomb/Smack Down/Stone Edge while avoiding Wide Guard mind games, I'm still going to opt Rock Slides for 1) better accuracy (remember there is no strong Rock move with 100% accuracy aside from Smack Down), 2) hit both targets (spread move), and lastly to get potential flinches to get myself ahead.

I invite you to search up the Pokemon Global Link statistics for Battle Spot doubles and tell me what is the most opted move for Politoed, Ludicolo, Lando-T, Terrakion, Suicune, T-Tar, Excadrill, Garchomp, etc. Literally most Rock or Water Pokemon will opt for either Scald or Rock Slide literally at least +80% of the time (except for Ludicolo which has a 77% usage). You have to understand that Rock Slide and Scald are opted for these detrimental side effects as well since a flinch can give someone the advantage or Scald burn can give the targets attack in half plus inflict residual damage. Literally we all have moments where we might get unlucky in one battle but take full advantage of hax on the other hand. Honestly we should not complain about hax saying it costed you the game. Just learn from your mistakes, realize that you made the best possible play and hopefully move on for future matches.