+- Pokemon Forever (http://pokemonforever.com)
+-- Forum: POKéMON (http://pokemonforever.com/Forum-POK%C3%A9MON)
+--- Forum: General Pokemon Discussion (http://pokemonforever.com/Forum-General-Pokemon-Discussion)
+--- Thread: Greninja banned to Ubers in Smogon (/Thread-Greninja-banned-to-Ubers-in-Smogon)
RE: Greninja banned to Ubers in Smogon - tygaa2 - Jan 12, 2015
(Jan 11, 2015, 11:02 PM)Rogue Wrote: Yeah I was using my level 30 Greninja and used surf in a doubles match against 2 level 50 Vaporeons with Water Absorb and OHKO'd both along with the trainer. They might have had a happiness down nature.
LOL
RE: Greninja banned to Ubers in Smogon - GamerXiphos - Jan 12, 2015
I don't play by Smogons rules, nor will I ever, fair if those people who do play by those rules want to use them but i'll stick to VGC or all out.
So this Greninja "ban" won't affect me in the slightest and hey, if I see a Greninja on the opposite team, I lead with a prankster to paralyse it.
RE: Greninja banned to Ubers in Smogon - Black117 - Jan 12, 2015
I actually got the chance to participate in the suspect test, got th reps, and yes, voted to ban Greninja in the end. I'm probably gonna repeat the same things as Rouge and Naitre said but here goes.
Greninja was, IMO the best revenge killer in the OU tier because of its amazing, yet trollish speed tier, wide coverage it gets, offensive capability with protean (btw this can actually work defensively to take hits if needed), and the surprisingly sheer unpredictability. Before the demo data mine leak and ORAS release, most smogon ou tiered players agreed Greninja was somewhat of a low S-tier mon but can be managable. Greninja had its checks and counters in AV Azu, Clefable, Ferrothorn (lacking HP Fire), M-Venusaur (lacking extrasensory), Sylveon, Chansey, Keldeo, Empoleon, AV Conkeldurr, etc. With ORAS Greninja received both gunk shot and (dk if people mention this) low kick which were unexpected godsends to the frog. Basically gunk shot nukes every fairy in the game while doing almost around half to would be counters like Conk, Keldeo, Chansey, etc. Low kick basically allows Greg to beat down its "new counters" in Empoleon and Chansey while not forgoing hydro miss (water stab) to kick T-tar and Ferrothorn hard. I know you guys are probably wondering these are physical attacks and Greg is know for being a special attacker primarily, but mixed Greninjas was the best Greninja set before ban.
Sample Greninja Set @ Life Orb
Ability: Protean
EVs: 244 Atk / 12 SpA / 252 Spe
Naive Nature
- Gunk Shot
- Low Kick
- Ice Beam
- Dark Pulse/Hydro Pump/Extrasensory/HP Fire/HP Grass
This sample Greninja hits all its would be counter hard (for a 2hko), while still capable of revenge killing most weaken pokemon after stealth rock damage. Notice how there are four moveslots in the last set, honestly Greninja can already 2hko most pokemon with the combination of gunk shot, low kick, and ice beam. This goes to show how powerful Greninja in tandem with protean and can pressure balance, and bulky offensive teams. Best part is Greg can still work around attacks tailored for its teammates to provide counter-measures against its counters. I'll include a damage calculations below:
Damage Calculations with stealth rocks in play
Honestly my favorite calculations are against offensive M-Venusaur and M-Metagross since it goes to show you the power of protean as an powerful offensive ability. Ice beam kill gets most of the relevant kos, gunk shot hits most things in ou hard, and low kick can do sizable damage and can ohko threats like T-tar and Heatran (while not relying on hydro miss). In short, Greninja has very few counters that can switch into any moves and most of the time Greg will be doing damage to itself from life orb and stealth rocks. Players need to have a designated counters or checks to at least beat Greninja but problem is you still have the rest of its team to worry about. Thing is these counter, checks and noteably random scarfers can be scouted and stopped by the opposing team if necessary. Once the opposing team is weaken, Geninja can just come in when given the chance, and clean up from there. I don't think Greninja is broken on the scale of some notable bans like M-Lucario and Blaziken but it just became so centralizing because of its trait in the 6v6 single metagame which was why I voted ban.
RE: Greninja banned to Ubers in Smogon - Shifu - Jan 12, 2015
I turned my back towards Smogon, it is just simply not my Style to ban something that is part of the Game.
RE: Greninja banned to Ubers in Smogon - tygaa2 - Jan 12, 2015
Greninjas counters are Priority moves and Choice Scarfed Pokemon! I would say talon flame would be a good job for this but smogon banned it too lol. The point I'm trying to make is when you constantly ban Pokemon that are not legendary [low base stats] it creates a domino effect and now you have to start banning everything because with each ban you make, you eliminate some other Pokemons counter. Its hard to make a good team that can take on the meta, but its much easier for smogon to just ban the threats
Primal Kyogre is a legend with a base stat of 770! Kyogre WILL NOT go down in one hit, even if its a super effective one so its hard for that to relate that to a Greninja ban. Thats 350 More base stat points than Greninja... that makes a huge difference. mega evolutions that make Pokemon much stronger are only increases of 100 base stats and you see how much that increases a Pokemons strength
edit: yet again no disrespect to smogon or those who play it
RE: Greninja banned to Ubers in Smogon - IceyGamer - Jan 12, 2015
I play VGC and love how awesome Greninja is. But for singles yeah its a pain because that is hard as heck to counter.
RE: Greninja banned to Ubers in Smogon - Shev - Jan 12, 2015
hydro pump can miss, and even being super effective with high dmg to heatran need 2 hits to ko him
RE: Greninja banned to Ubers in Smogon - DanielJames - Jan 12, 2015
(Jan 12, 2015, 07:26 AM)tygaa2 Wrote: Greninjas counters are Priority moves and Choice Scarfed Pokemon! I would say talon flame would be a good job for this but smogon banned it too lol. The point I'm trying to make is when you constantly ban Pokemon that are not legendary [low base stats] it creates a domino effect and now you have to start banning everything because with each ban you make, you eliminate some other Pokemons counter. Its hard to make a good team that can take on the meta, but its much easier for smogon to just ban the threats
Primal Kyogre is a legend with a base stat of 770! Kyogre WILL NOT go down in one hit, even if its a super effective one so its hard for that to relate that to a Greninja ban. Thats 350 More base stat points than Greninja... that makes a huge difference. mega evolutions that make Pokemon much stronger are only increases of 100 base stats and you see how much that increases a Pokemons strength
edit: yet again no disrespect to smogon or those who play it
Completely agree. Every time a Pokémon is banned by Smogon, another Pokémon eventually rises and takes it's place before it too gets banned. Where does it stop? The problem when you tier Pokémon like Smogon does, there's always going to be a select few within the tier that excel more than others.
RE: Greninja banned to Ubers in Smogon - thewasher19 - Jan 12, 2015
The one problem with Greninja is that it is very easy to counter if you have someone like Talonflame who can one hit KO with Brave Bird
RE: Greninja banned to Ubers in Smogon - Rogue - Jan 12, 2015
I think some of you are missing the point. It wasn't banned to Ubers simply because "we couldn't find anything to beat it." We know that Guts Conkeldurr can almost OHKO with a mach punch before it changes typing. We know that Talonflame can OHKO it. Once again, thats not the problem.
Lets say I lead with Greninja and you lead with Conkeldurr. I know you're going to try and mach punch me, so I safely switch out into my tornadus. I take little damage, I out speed with this as well, and I'm now going to OHKO your Conkeldurr who threatened my Greninja.
Or different story. You lead with Talonflame and I lead with Greninja. I know you'll OHKO, so I switch out into Heatran. You literally can't touch my Heatran so lets say you switch out. I predict your switch and lay down stealth rocks. Now your Talonflame is almost useless thanks to the rocks. Even if you stay in and put up something like a swords dance, I'm running ancient power to OHKO your Talonflame.
Does that make more sense? It's not just the pokemon. It's how easy I can build around it. The small checks and counters you could list, all could easily be reverse countered by my other 5 Pokemon. There's no point in you having a counter for something, if I can counter your counter with ease. Because once I take out that 1-2 checks on your team, my Greninja is free to run wild.