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+--- Thread: [RATE MY TEAM] VGC Trick Room advice needed (/Thread-RATE-MY-TEAM-VGC-Trick-Room-advice-needed)
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VGC Trick Room advice needed - ShinyMisty - Dec 8, 2016
This is my first VCG team I made in about a year, and was hoping to get some helpful advice of my spreads. This is by no means a master peace, and I know it has flaws, but that is why I am here, asking for some advise.
Quote:Oranguru @ Mental Herb
Ability: Telepathy
Level: 50
EVs: 252 HP / 4 Def / 252 SpD
Relaxed Nature
IVs: 0 Atk / 0 Spe
- Trick Room
- Instruct
- Taunt
- Protect
Marowak-Alola @ Thick Club
Ability: Lightning Rod
Level: 50
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 4 SpD
Adament Nature
IVs: 0 Spe
- Flare Blitz
- Shadow Bone
- Bonemerang
- Rock Slide
Hariyama @ Flame Orb
Ability: Guts
Level: 50
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 4 SpD
Brave Nature
IVs: 0 Spe
- Fake Out
- Knock Off
- Close Combat
- Protect
Drampa @ Choice Specs
Ability: Berserk
Level: 50
EVs: 252 HP / 4 Def / 120 SpA / 132 SpD
Sassy Nature
IVs: 0 Atk / 0 Spe
- Shadow Ball
- Dragon Pulse
- Ice Beam
- Hyper Voice
Celesteela @ Focus Sash
Ability: Beast Boost
Level: 50
EVs: 252 HP / 4 Atk / 100 Def / 152 SpD
Relaxed Nature
IVs: 0 Spe
- Heavy Slam
- Seed Bomb
- Flamethrower
- Protect
Shiinotic @ Sitrus Berry
Ability: Effect Spore
Level: 50
EVs: 252 HP / 110 Def / 36 SpA / 110 SpD
Relaxed Nature
IVs: 0 Atk / 0 Spe
- Spore
- Moonblast
- Giga Drain
- Leech Seed
With the EV spred and +Sp Def. Nature on Drampa, he can live a 252 Fairy move from a Tapu Lele, and is able to oneshot it with a Shadow Ball. It can also one shot Garchomp with an Ice Beam (but will be one shotted in return if not under trick room).
I am just having some troubles figuring out the damage calcs of...everything else that is running a muck in VGC.
I am rather rusted with this, and without really knowing what is being run in VGC, I can't really prep myself for the heavy hitters, so any help is, well, helpful. I am willing to swich up items, EV spreds, even Natures. (And Pokemon if something can do the job better).
Thank-you so much in advance for the advice, and I hope you all have an amazingly fantastic day. Please remember to smile. :)
RE: VGC Trick Room advice needed - ChaseInfinity - Dec 8, 2016
Keep in mind the purple can make it kinda difficult to see the text, especially in our night mode, i changed it back to normal color
ill try to read it and give some advice soon
RE: VGC Trick Room advice needed - ShinyMisty - Dec 8, 2016
(Dec 8, 2016, 12:26 PM)ChaseInfinity Wrote: Keep in mind the purple can make it kinda difficult to see the text, especially in our night mode, i changed it back to normal color
I...didn't know there was a night mode. I apologize, and will fix my other posts to prevent reading difficulty. Thank-you for informing me.
RE: VGC Trick Room advice needed - ChaseInfinity - Dec 8, 2016
(Dec 8, 2016, 12:29 PM)ShinyMisty Wrote:(Dec 8, 2016, 12:26 PM)ChaseInfinity Wrote: Keep in mind the purple can make it kinda difficult to see the text, especially in our night mode, i changed it back to normal color
I...didn't know there was a night mode. I apologize, and will fix my other posts to prevent reading difficulty. Thank-you for informing me.
It's fine, i dont think alot of people on the server know about it, you're fine, just trying to make it easier for people to critique your team <3
RE: VGC Trick Room advice needed - Rogue - Dec 8, 2016
Keep in mind that your oranguru is taunt bait. I understand the herb helps, but it's an issue if your mon becomes completely useless if taunted without your herb up. I recommend having at least one attacking move on there. Pokemon like Lycanroc are strong, fast, and easy to throw taunt on. Easily paired with a fakeout user as well. This can easily make your Oranguru useless turn 2 via fake out > taunt > turn 2 > taunt. Making you forced to switch out. Just a thought.
Celesteela, in my opinion, doesn't need focus sash. the things that would OHKO cele; celesteela can't OHKO back. Ontop of that this mon is seen as a bulky threat, so it's often double targeted meaning the sash is easily wasted. If you're doing an offensive set, perhaps something like expert belt would be interesting. do more damage to the tapus that way. If that isn't your feel, a defensive item like leftovers or a wacan berry would be nice.
RE: VGC Trick Room advice needed - ShinyMisty - Dec 8, 2016
(Dec 8, 2016, 01:08 PM)Rogue Wrote: Keep in mind that your oranguru is taunt bait. I understand the herb helps, but it's an issue if your mon becomes completely useless if taunted without your herb up. I recommend having at least one attacking move on there. Pokemon like Lycanroc are strong, fast, and easy to throw taunt on. Easily paired with a fakeout user as well. This can easily make your Oranguru useless turn 2 via fake out > taunt > turn 2 > taunt. Making you forced to switch out. Just a thought.
Celesteela, in my opinion, doesn't need focus sash. the things that would OHKO cele; celesteela can't OHKO back. Ontop of that this mon is seen as a bulky threat, so it's often double targeted meaning the sash is easily wasted. If you're doing an offensive set, perhaps something like expert belt would be interesting. do more damage to the tapus that way. If that isn't your feel, a defensive item like leftovers or a wacan berry would be nice.
...*nods* I was thinking on giving Oranguru an attacking move. I just didn't know what I wanted to give him. Psychic for STAB, or something else. (I'll slap Psychic on him for now).
I'll give Celestella a Belt, too. I had the Sash originally because I had a deffence lowering nature and felt it was needed. But now that I have a Defence raising nature, I guess it is pointless. And the Belt could help with dealing extra damage, too. :)
Thank-you very much for the helpful tips.
RE: VGC Trick Room advice needed - Marcusube - Dec 8, 2016
I hate to sound selfish or offensive but I'd really appreciate if you didn't use fine print as it makes your post harder to read. I apologize in advance if any comments come across as offensive if they ever so happen to be. There is an importable of the fixed team at the bottom of this post in case you really don't have the time to read the post and want to get in as much Showdown as possible (still read it though)
You have a solid core of Oranguru / Marowak-A / Hariyama going on here. Together, these three have near perfect offensive coverage and defensive synergy. Less can be said about the remainder of the team because it looks like you slapped a Dragon+Steel+Fairy core together just to fill the remaining slots.
Shiinotic isn't as viable as the current mons in this metagame from my experience. With Marowak-A, Celesteela and Tapu Lele running amok alongside Torkoal, Nihilego and Arcanine, it won't be impacting a lot of games as it is easy to OHKO. It also struggles against Rain teams despite being a Grass type.
Celesteela is practically dead weight on your team as it doesn't perform well defensively and offensively, it is very mediocre. Without reliable recovery, it falls prey to Tapu Koko, Marowak-A and pretty much every Electric, Fighting and Fire type in the metagame and there are a lot. Sure Celesteela is S rank in VGC standings but not because it's good on it's own means that it will fit any team.
Drampa does do well on this team, however, supporting a Choice Specs set is very hard in this metagame due to the presence of Marowak-A, Tapu Lele and Celesteela which generally force Drampa to switch out to reset its move. Maybe Life Orb would be a better item.
With all that said, here are my suggestions
Oranguru @ Mental Herb
Ability: Telepathy
Level: 50
EVs: 252 HP / 84 Def / 172 SpD
Calm Nature
IVs: 0 Atk / 4 Spe
- Trick Room
- Instruct
- Psychic
- Protect
Pretty much the same as the Oranguru you had but with a few tweaks. Firstly, I changed the nature from Bold to Calm to capitalize more on Oranguru's dominant SpDef stat. With the added SpDef Oranguru can do this:
252 SpA Life Orb Tapu Koko Thunderbolt vs. 252 HP / 172+ SpD Oranguru in Electric Terrain: 87-105 (44.1 - 53.2%) -- 26.6% chance to 2HKO
Pretty amazing benchmark here as Tapu Koko hits very hard with Thunderbolt. This EV spread achieves a better effect than 252 HP/ 252 SpDef / 4 Def Bold as it allows Oranguru to take more special hits as 2HKOs or near 3HKOs which is essential for a Trick Room setter
68 Atk Celesteela Heavy Slam (120 BP) vs. 252 HP / 84 Def Oranguru: 79-94 (40.1 - 47.7%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
Arbitrary calculation but I just want to show it off either way. Oranguru will not be living any Life Orb boosted super effective hit from any physical attacker but it does have a chance to live Marowak-A's Flare Blitz
I'll explain the Speed IVs later
Marowak-Alola @ Thick Club
Ability: Lightning Rod
Level: 50
EVs: 252 HP / 152 Atk / 36 Def / 68 SpD
Adamant Nature
IVs: 29 Spe
- Flare Blitz
- Shadow Bone
- Bonemerang
- Protect
252 SpA Tapu Lele Psychic vs. 156 HP / 44 SpD Marowak-Alola in Psychic Terrain: 130-154 (83.8 - 99.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
-1 148+ Atk Thick Club Marowak-Alola Shadow Bone vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Tapu Lele: 174-206 (120 - 142%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252+ Atk Golisopod Liquidation vs. 236 HP / 36 Def Marowak-Alola: 138-164 (83.6 - 99.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ SpA Drampa Draco Meteor vs. 236 HP / 68 SpD Marowak-Alola: 138-163 (83.6 - 98.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
152 Attack EVs still allow Marowak to OHKO Celesteela as well as everything else it usually would. There is no reason to go 252 as Marowak is fully capable of dealing the damage it needs to with 152 plus using less EVs in one stat allows you to distribute EVs more defensively
Hariyama @ Flame Orb
Ability: Guts
Level: 50
EVs: 28 HP / 252 Atk / 176 Def / 52 SpD
Adamant Nature
IVs: 22 Spe
- Fake Out
- Knock Off
- Close Combat
- Poison Jab
252+ Atk Thick Club Marowak-Alola Flare Blitz vs. 28 HP / 176 Def Hariyama: 193-228 (86.5 - 102.2%) -- 12.5% chance to OHKO
252+ SpA Tapu Fini Moonblast vs. 28 HP / 52 SpD Hariyama: 200-236 (89.6 - 105.8%) -- 37.5% chance to OHKO
252 SpA Life Orb Tapu Koko Thunderbolt vs. 28 HP / 52 SpD Hariyama: 110-133 (49.3 - 59.6%) -- 99.6% chance to 2HKO
The calculations are my benchmarks for this set. Yes, these attacks have a chance to OHKO, however, very low chances plus 252 HP EVs is less effective. 28 HP EVs lets Hariyama take minimum damage from burn recoil and Sand/Hail damage
I put Poison Jab on this specifically to hit the Tapus, however, Stone Edge is an option if hitting Bug and Flying types is more important to you
The Speed IVs go as followed
- Marowak is IVd to underspeed opposing non-Trick Room Marowak by one point as well as outspeed 63 and under Pokemon. This is key in case you don't want to set up Trick Room due to slower Pokemon such as Drampa and Torkoal being on the field
- Oranguru is IVd to outspeed Hariyama and Marowak under Trick Room so Instruct won't fail
- Hariyama's speed IV allow it to outspeed Pokemon at 65 by one point such as Exeggutor-A, Marowak-A, Golem-A etc. This is key for when these Pokemon lead to stop Trick Room set ups
Tapu Bulu @ Life Orb
Ability: Grassy Surge
Level: 50
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Protect
- Wood Hammer
- Horn Leech
- Rock Slide
Tapu Bulu performs 2 roles.
- It removes opposing terrain:
Tapu Fini stops Hariyama's Flame Orb, Tapu Lele stops Fake Out and can make Psychic hit very hard allowing it to OHKO most of your mons and Tapu Koko makes Electric moves hit ridiculously hard
- It swats everything that doesn't resist Wood Hammer and/or outspeeds it
Very critical against Rain and Sand teams (yes, weather discourages Trick Room, primarily Rain this year due to Araquanid and Pelipper being so busted), very critical against bulky Water types like Tapu Fini and Milotic who shrug off damage from the first three Pokemon and either KO or wear them down with easy and very critical against everything else. Seriously, Life Orb Wood Hammer OHKOs a lot and Grass/Fairy makes Tapu Bulu resistant to a lot of common typings
Weavile @ Darkinium Z
Ability: Pressure
Level: 50
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Throat Chop
- Icicle Crash
- Ice Shard
- Fake Out
Dark STAB and Ice STAB is very necessary on this team, so is speed. Weavile does both plus its priority makes dealing with Pheromosa a bit easier. Darkinium Z is specifically for Oranguru as it escapes the KO from Throat Chop and not every game you want Trick Room to be up
Porygon2 @ Eviolite
Ability: Download
Level: 50
EVs: 252 HP / 156 Def / 40 SpA / 60 SpD
Quiet Nature
IVs: 0 Atk / 0 Spe
- Tri Attack
- Shadow Ball
- Recover
- Trick Room
For an all out Trick Room team, you need a secondary setter. Porygon2 is the best one as it is very bulky, gets access to Download which can make it hit like a train and it has a wide movepool. Also it gets access to Recover which allows it to stay around longer and it functions very well in and out of Trick Room. Very solid Pokemon indeed.
That's about as much as I can suggest @ShinyMisty
IMPORTABLE (in case you can't bother reading all of this and just want me to fix your team):
RE: VGC Trick Room advice needed - ShinyMisty - Dec 9, 2016
(Dec 8, 2016, 09:32 PM)Marcusube Wrote: I hate to sound selfish or offensive but I'd really appreciate if you didn't use fine print as it makes your post harder to read. I apologize in advance if any comments come across as offensive if they ever so happen to be. There is an importable of the fixed team at the bottom of this post in case you really don't have the time to read the post and want to get in as much Showdown as possible (still read it though)
You have a solid core of Oranguru / Marowak-A / Hariyama going on here. Together, these three have near perfect offensive coverage and defensive synergy. Less can be said about the remainder of the team because it looks like you slapped a Dragon+Steel+Fairy core together just to fill the remaining slots.
Shiinotic isn't as viable as the current mons in this metagame from my experience. With Marowak-A, Celesteela and Tapu Lele running amok alongside Torkoal, Nihilego and Arcanine, it won't be impacting a lot of games as it is easy to OHKO. It also struggles against Rain teams despite being a Grass type.
Celesteela is practically dead weight on your team as it doesn't perform well defensively and offensively, it is very mediocre. Without reliable recovery, it falls prey to Tapu Koko, Marowak-A and pretty much every Electric, Fighting and Fire type in the metagame and there are a lot. Sure Celesteela is S rank in VGC standings but not because it's good on it's own means that it will fit any team.
Drampa does do well on this team, however, supporting a Choice Specs set is very hard in this metagame due to the presence of Marowak-A, Tapu Lele and Celesteela which generally force Drampa to switch out to reset its move. Maybe Life Orb would be a better item.
With all that said, here are my suggestions
Oranguru @ Mental Herb
Ability: Telepathy
Level: 50
EVs: 252 HP / 84 Def / 172 SpD
Calm Nature
IVs: 0 Atk / 4 Spe
- Trick Room
- Instruct
- Psychic
- Protect
Pretty much the same as the Oranguru you had but with a few tweaks. Firstly, I changed the nature from Bold to Calm to capitalize more on Oranguru's dominant SpDef stat. With the added SpDef Oranguru can do this:
252 SpA Life Orb Tapu Koko Thunderbolt vs. 252 HP / 172+ SpD Oranguru in Electric Terrain: 87-105 (44.1 - 53.2%) -- 26.6% chance to 2HKO
Pretty amazing benchmark here as Tapu Koko hits very hard with Thunderbolt. This EV spread achieves a better effect than 252 HP/ 252 SpDef / 4 Def Bold as it allows Oranguru to take more special hits as 2HKOs or near 3HKOs which is essential for a Trick Room setter
68 Atk Celesteela Heavy Slam (120 BP) vs. 252 HP / 84 Def Oranguru: 79-94 (40.1 - 47.7%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
Arbitrary calculation but I just want to show it off either way. Oranguru will not be living any Life Orb boosted super effective hit from any physical attacker but it does have a chance to live Marowak-A's Flare Blitz
I'll explain the Speed IVs later
Marowak-Alola @ Thick Club
Ability: Lightning Rod
Level: 50
EVs: 252 HP / 152 Atk / 36 Def / 68 SpD
Adamant Nature
IVs: 29 Spe
- Flare Blitz
- Shadow Bone
- Bonemerang
- Protect
252 SpA Tapu Lele Psychic vs. 156 HP / 44 SpD Marowak-Alola in Psychic Terrain: 130-154 (83.8 - 99.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
-1 148+ Atk Thick Club Marowak-Alola Shadow Bone vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Tapu Lele: 174-206 (120 - 142%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252+ Atk Golisopod Liquidation vs. 236 HP / 36 Def Marowak-Alola: 138-164 (83.6 - 99.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ SpA Drampa Draco Meteor vs. 236 HP / 68 SpD Marowak-Alola: 138-163 (83.6 - 98.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
152 Attack EVs still allow Marowak to OHKO Celesteela as well as everything else it usually would. There is no reason to go 252 as Marowak is fully capable of dealing the damage it needs to with 152 plus using less EVs in one stat allows you to distribute EVs more defensively
Hariyama @ Flame Orb
Ability: Guts
Level: 50
EVs: 28 HP / 252 Atk / 176 Def / 52 SpD
Adamant Nature
IVs: 22 Spe
- Fake Out
- Knock Off
- Close Combat
- Poison Jab
252+ Atk Thick Club Marowak-Alola Flare Blitz vs. 28 HP / 176 Def Hariyama: 193-228 (86.5 - 102.2%) -- 12.5% chance to OHKO
252+ SpA Tapu Fini Moonblast vs. 28 HP / 52 SpD Hariyama: 200-236 (89.6 - 105.8%) -- 37.5% chance to OHKO
252 SpA Life Orb Tapu Koko Thunderbolt vs. 28 HP / 52 SpD Hariyama: 110-133 (49.3 - 59.6%) -- 99.6% chance to 2HKO
The calculations are my benchmarks for this set. Yes, these attacks have a chance to OHKO, however, very low chances plus 252 HP EVs is less effective. 28 HP EVs lets Hariyama take minimum damage from burn recoil and Sand/Hail damage
I put Poison Jab on this specifically to hit the Tapus, however, Stone Edge is an option if hitting Bug and Flying types is more important to you
The Speed IVs go as followed
- Marowak is IVd to underspeed opposing non-Trick Room Marowak by one point as well as outspeed 63 and under Pokemon. This is key in case you don't want to set up Trick Room due to slower Pokemon such as Drampa and Torkoal being on the field
- Oranguru is IVd to outspeed Hariyama and Marowak under Trick Room so Instruct won't fail
- Hariyama's speed IV allow it to outspeed Pokemon at 65 by one point such as Exeggutor-A, Marowak-A, Golem-A etc. This is key for when these Pokemon lead to stop Trick Room set ups
Tapu Bulu @ Life Orb
Ability: Grassy Surge
Level: 50
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Protect
- Wood Hammer
- Horn Leech
- Rock Slide
Tapu Bulu performs 2 roles.
- It removes opposing terrain:
Tapu Fini stops Hariyama's Flame Orb, Tapu Lele stops Fake Out and can make Psychic hit very hard allowing it to OHKO most of your mons and Tapu Koko makes Electric moves hit ridiculously hard
- It swats everything that doesn't resist Wood Hammer and/or outspeeds it
Very critical against Rain and Sand teams (yes, weather discourages Trick Room, primarily Rain this year due to Araquanid and Pelipper being so busted), very critical against bulky Water types like Tapu Fini and Milotic who shrug off damage from the first three Pokemon and either KO or wear them down with easy and very critical against everything else. Seriously, Life Orb Wood Hammer OHKOs a lot and Grass/Fairy makes Tapu Bulu resistant to a lot of common typings
Weavile @ Darkinium Z
Ability: Pressure
Level: 50
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Throat Chop
- Icicle Crash
- Ice Shard
- Fake Out
Dark STAB and Ice STAB is very necessary on this team, so is speed. Weavile does both plus its priority makes dealing with Pheromosa a bit easier. Darkinium Z is specifically for Oranguru as it escapes the KO from Throat Chop and not every game you want Trick Room to be up
Porygon2 @ Eviolite
Ability: Download
Level: 50
EVs: 252 HP / 156 Def / 40 SpA / 60 SpD
Quiet Nature
IVs: 0 Atk / 0 Spe
- Tri Attack
- Shadow Ball
- Recover
- Trick Room
For an all out Trick Room team, you need a secondary setter. Porygon2 is the best one as it is very bulky, gets access to Download which can make it hit like a train and it has a wide movepool. Also it gets access to Recover which allows it to stay around longer and it functions very well in and out of Trick Room. Very solid Pokemon indeed.
That's about as much as I can suggest @ShinyMisty
IMPORTABLE (in case you can't bother reading all of this and just want me to fix your team):
Sorry about the text. I am still trying to get use to things around here. ^^; You didn't sound selfish, just warning me of the difficulties the text could cause. Thank-you for that.
AND thank-you for the advice. I read through it and you make very valid points.
I have a tournement coming up tomorrow, so I'll have to do make due with what I am able to get ready from your suggestions.
Although, I want to ask why make Tapu Bulu Jolly if he is meant to be in Trick Room? For the same reason you suggested Wevile, I presume? It makes sense, I just wanted to make sure.
RE: VGC Trick Room advice needed - Hojunhu - Dec 9, 2016
@ShinyMisty regarding Jolly Bulu, you want to have at least some decently speedy mons in a trick room team just in case you can't get a trick room off. Most trick room users will run half trick room, half hyper aggro just in case trick room can't go off. So it's like they made 2-3 different teams of 4 from one team of 6.
RE: VGC Trick Room advice needed - Reed - Dec 9, 2016
Why Telepathy when none of your Pokémon can hit Oranguru? Maybe I missed a move, but I'd suggest inner focus instead.