While still on my quest to create a team of hopefully powerful (and super adorable) Pokémon, I stumbled about a thread discussing Sun Teams and Cherrim. I'm still rather new to learning about the meta game and various methods of climbing your way through the ranks, so I wanted some honest feedback on this.
I often see and hear about Rain Teams, but I was wondering... are Sun Teams actually a viable option and/or something you might see as well? Could Cherrim be used with the right group? And, if so, how could you feasibly even run this Pokémon? Off the top of my head, I'd assume that you'd pair it with something like Ninetails, since I know that beautiful fox does have the Drought Hidden Ability. I guess Mega Charizard Y would work, too.
Also, if you were going to attempt to execute something like this, is Cherrim better used as a support or more of a Special Attacker? Its base stats don't seem that bad to me, but I don't trust myself to determine something like this.
(Mar 29, 2015, 07:37 AM)KevMan Wrote: Pretty sure you only see Cherrim as support, I don't think it would be good to focus on Sp. Atk.
Okay, I see.
So, would you be looking at an EV spread like 252 HP / 252 Defense / 4 Speed? Or would something like 252 HP / 252 Defense / 4 Special Defense be better?
I'm not sure this is something I'd honestly mess with, but I'm curious to learn about other strategies some people may use.
I believe the best EV spread would be 252 HP / 252 Defense / 4 Special Defense. At least as a general spread. I don't know if Cherrim has the potential to live many super effective blasts to the face, especially with so many Talonflames, Charizards, and Thunduruses running around.
We could do some damage calcs to see what a specific spread could do but I think you're better off just following the 252-252-4 route for now. You don't see Cherrim often, so you may want to play around with a team before switching up EVs... not that you suggested that but just saying ahead of time.
Also I think sun teams are completely valid. You don't see them as often as rain teams but that doesn't mean they don't have a use. Since you'd be using Cherrim as a support I think Mega Charizard Y would be the preferred mega, although you could work around it. Was there a specific mega you were considering for this or are you just throwing things out there to gather general ideas?
Mar 29, 2015, 11:00 AM (This post was last modified: Mar 29, 2015, 11:22 AM by GiMYz.)
I'm trying to figure out which role Cherrim is actually able to play in VGC format but i can't really tell anything except for a mixed Support/SpAttacker thanks to its ability which raises its SpD and thanks to its decent SpA base stat.
If you are able to set up the Sun, there are for example some pokemons which would benefit a lot from the presence of Cherrim on the field:
- Landorus-T (a 50% boost in both Atk and SpD means that it will deal a huge amount of damage on anything while it will be able to survive many Ice Beams/HPs Ice which would otherwise OHKO it)
- Bisharp (a further 50% boost in Atk is really scary, and it appreciates a boost in SpD too)
- every physical attacker which lacks SpD and that can have a good role in a sun team (ex. Wide Guard Conkeldurr)
Since we want Cherrim to stay on the field as much as possible, we have to focus on its bulk, a recovery item and a recovery move, but its decent SpA stat allows Cherrim to go for offensive plays sometimes.
Cherrim @ Leftovers
Ability: Flower Gift
Level: 50
EVs: 252 HP / 216 Def / 12 SpD / 28 Spe
Bold Nature
- Solar Beam
- Hidden Power [Ice]
- Helping Hand
- Morning Sun
252 HP are essential on this set, while 216 Def EV and a Bold nature allows it to survive a Double-Edge from Jolly Mega Kang too.
12 SpD: it reaches 100 SpD stat, which is 150 under the sun.
28 Spe: it reaches 109 Speed, which is 1 point above 20 Spe EV Suicune (108), so you can Solar Beam it before it can attack.
calcs:
0 SpA Cherrim Hidden Power Ice vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Landorus-T: 100-120 (60.6 - 72.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
0 SpA Cherrim Solar Beam vs. 232 HP / 80 SpD Suicune: 102-120 (50 - 58.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 Atk Parental Bond Mega Kangaskhan Double-Edge vs. 252 HP / 216+ Def Cherrim: 142-169 (80.2 - 95.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ Atk Landorus-T U-turn vs. 252 HP / 216+ Def Cherrim: 90-106 (50.8 - 59.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
112 SpA Suicune Ice Beam vs. 252 HP / 12 SpD Flower Gift Cherrim in Sun: 56-68 (31.6 - 38.4%) -- 92.5% chance to 3HKO
(Mar 29, 2015, 11:00 AM)GMX Wrote: I'm trying to figure out which role Cherrim is actually able to play in VGC format but i can't really tell anything except for a mixed Support/SpAttacker thanks to its ability which raises its SpD and thanks to its decent SpA base stat.
If you are able to set up the Sun, there are for example some pokemons which would benefit a lot from the presence of Cherrim on the field:
- Landorus-T (a 50% boost in both Atk and SpD means that it will deal a huge amount of damage on anything while it will be able to survive many Ice Beams/HPs Ice which would otherwise OHKO it)
- Bisharp (a further 50% boost in Atk is really scary, and it appreciates a boost in SpD too)
- every physical attacker which lacks SpD and that can have a good role in a sun team (ex. Wide Guard Conkeldurr)
Since we want Cherrim to stay on the field as much as possible, we have to focus on its bulk, a recovery item and a recovery move, but its decent SpA stat allows Cherrim to go for offensive plays sometimes.
Cherrim @ Leftovers
Ability: Flower Gift
Level: 50
EVs: 252 HP / 216 Def / 12 SpD / 28 Spe
Bold Nature
- Solar Beam
- Hidden Power [Ice]
- Helping Hand
- Morning Sun
252 HP are essential on this set, while 216 Def EV and a Bold nature allows it to survive a Double-Edge from Jolly Mega Kang too.
12 SpD: it reaches 100 SpD stat, which is 150 under the sun.
28 Spe: it reaches 109 Speed, which is 1 point above 20 Spe EV Suicune (108), so you can Solar Beam it before it can attack.
calcs:
0 SpA Cherrim Hidden Power Ice vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Landorus-T: 100-120 (60.6 - 72.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
0 SpA Cherrim Solar Beam vs. 232 HP / 80 SpD Suicune: 102-120 (50 - 58.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 Atk Parental Bond Mega Kangaskhan Double-Edge vs. 252 HP / 216+ Def Cherrim: 142-169 (80.2 - 95.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ Atk Landorus-T U-turn vs. 252 HP / 216+ Def Cherrim: 90-106 (50.8 - 59.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
112 SpA Suicune Ice Beam vs. 252 HP / 12 SpD Flower Gift Cherrim in Sun: 56-68 (31.6 - 38.4%) -- 92.5% chance to 3HKO
Wow, thank you so much for providing such a thorough response, GMX! I actually really like the idea of this little guy with Conkeldurr! I'll do some experimenting and see how things go.
Thank you, again! I appreciate you taking the time to help me out.
(Mar 29, 2015, 11:00 AM)GMX Wrote: I'm trying to figure out which role Cherrim is actually able to play in VGC format but i can't really tell anything except for a mixed Support/SpAttacker thanks to its ability which raises its SpD and thanks to its decent SpA base stat.
If you are able to set up the Sun, there are for example some pokemons which would benefit a lot from the presence of Cherrim on the field:
- Landorus-T (a 50% boost in both Atk and SpD means that it will deal a huge amount of damage on anything while it will be able to survive many Ice Beams/HPs Ice which would otherwise OHKO it)
- Bisharp (a further 50% boost in Atk is really scary, and it appreciates a boost in SpD too)
- every physical attacker which lacks SpD and that can have a good role in a sun team (ex. Wide Guard Conkeldurr)
Since we want Cherrim to stay on the field as much as possible, we have to focus on its bulk, a recovery item and a recovery move, but its decent SpA stat allows Cherrim to go for offensive plays sometimes.
Cherrim @ Leftovers
Ability: Flower Gift
Level: 50
EVs: 252 HP / 216 Def / 12 SpD / 28 Spe
Bold Nature
- Solar Beam
- Hidden Power [Ice]
- Helping Hand
- Morning Sun
252 HP are essential on this set, while 216 Def EV and a Bold nature allows it to survive a Double-Edge from Jolly Mega Kang too.
12 SpD: it reaches 100 SpD stat, which is 150 under the sun.
28 Spe: it reaches 109 Speed, which is 1 point above 20 Spe EV Suicune (108), so you can Solar Beam it before it can attack.
calcs:
0 SpA Cherrim Hidden Power Ice vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Landorus-T: 100-120 (60.6 - 72.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
0 SpA Cherrim Solar Beam vs. 232 HP / 80 SpD Suicune: 102-120 (50 - 58.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 Atk Parental Bond Mega Kangaskhan Double-Edge vs. 252 HP / 216+ Def Cherrim: 142-169 (80.2 - 95.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ Atk Landorus-T U-turn vs. 252 HP / 216+ Def Cherrim: 90-106 (50.8 - 59.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
112 SpA Suicune Ice Beam vs. 252 HP / 12 SpD Flower Gift Cherrim in Sun: 56-68 (31.6 - 38.4%) -- 92.5% chance to 3HKO
Wow, thank you so much for providing such a thorough response, GMX! I actually really like the idea of this little guy with Conkeldurr! I'll do some experimenting and see how things go.
Thank you, again! I appreciate you taking the time to help me out.
xx
I can't guarantee it will work for sure, but that's the best it can offer in my opinion.
When I think about "Sun" teams in VGC format they fall under two categories: Mega Charizard Y/Venusaur with pledge attacks, and Drought Ninetales with Support Cherrim. Arguably the better of the two are pledge teams as their isn't much available checks aside from Flash Fire users, opposing weather, and a well timed protect. A full boosted Fire/Grass Pledge combination, clocking in at 160 base power before STABs and Sun will knock out any Pokemon who isn't resisted or do massive damage to near knock out. Chlorophyll Venusaur can put its targets to sleep while Charizard Y can still fire off strong sun-boosted fire attacks and Solar Beams. That said, if you can take out one portion of these two Mons or heck even predict the double protect and go with a Tailwind of your own, chances are Charizard will be forced to which out or risk being knocked out the following turn.
What I think about Cherrim/Ninetails sun teams is you definitely now have to protect either from fainting immediately. Fortunately thanks to Flower Gift, Ninetales, Cherrim and their teammates will be able to take special hits far better and dish out heavy hitting physical attacks. Cherrim remind me about using Politoed since all it really needs to do is exist in the battlefield for Drizzle support and get Scald burns, Icy Wind, or give Helping Hand boost. You'd definitely would like to invest into Cherrim's physical bulk as much as possible while giving out minor evs here and there similar to GMX's Cherrim set. Cherrim has access to a moderately low movepool but its usable somewhat with attacks like Helping Hand, Morning Sun, Sunny Day (predicting weather switches), Safeguard, Dazzling Gleam, Heal Pulse, Worry Seed, Giga Drain, Seed Bomb, Grass whistle and etc. Considering the Helping Hand and Flower Gift boost, any allied Pokemon to Cherrim might be able to overpower the opposing target easily similar to the pledge teams. Most Ninetales I have seen are adamant Choice Scarf with sun boosted Flare Blitz to potentially ohko 4hp Mega Kangaskhan.
(Mar 29, 2015, 05:41 PM)Black117 Wrote: When I think about "Sun" teams in VGC format they fall under two categories: Mega Charizard Y/Venusaur with pledge attacks, and Drought Ninetales with Support Cherrim. Arguably the better of the two are pledge teams as their isn't much available checks aside from Flash Fire users, opposing weather, and a well timed protect. A full boosted Fire/Grass Pledge combination, clocking in at 160 base power before STABs and Sun will knock out any Pokemon who isn't resisted or do massive damage to near knock out. Chlorophyll Venusaur can put its targets to sleep while Charizard Y can still fire off strong sun-boosted fire attacks and Solar Beams. That said, if you can take out one portion of these two Mons or heck even predict the double protect and go with a Tailwind of your own, chances are Charizard will be forced to which out or risk being knocked out the following turn.
What I think about Cherrim/Ninetails sun teams is you definitely now have to protect either from fainting immediately. Fortunately thanks to Flower Gift, Ninetales, Cherrim and their teammates will be able to take special hits far better and dish out heavy hitting physical attacks. Cherrim remind me about using Politoed since all it really needs to do is exist in the battlefield for Drizzle support and get Scald burns, Icy Wind, or give Helping Hand boost. You'd definitely would like to invest into Cherrim's physical bulk as much as possible while giving out minor evs here and there similar to GMX's Cherrim set. Cherrim has access to a moderately low movepool but its usable somewhat with attacks like Helping Hand, Morning Sun, Sunny Day (predicting weather switches), Safeguard, Dazzling Gleam, Heal Pulse, Worry Seed, Giga Drain, Seed Bomb, Grass whistle and etc. Considering the Helping Hand and Flower Gift boost, any allied Pokemon to Cherrim might be able to overpower the opposing target easily similar to the pledge teams. Most Ninetales I have seen are adamant Choice Scarf with sun boosted Flare Blitz to potentially ohko 4hp Mega Kangaskhan.
Thank you for such awesome and helpful feedback! It helps me immensely as I continue to play around with this idea some more.
Huh...you know, I've rarely seen Pledge moves. And I see Charizard Y A LOT! Way more than Politoed. Also, I don't quiet see why you would want to use Ninetales as a Choice Scarfed Physical Attacker. From my experience with it in the past, it works better as support, being able to take many special hits, and even without Special Attack investment, Flamethrower or Fire Blast from it does massive damage if super effective. I liked using Will-O-Wisp and Hex on it as some type of support.
Also, "All Politoed needs is to get Scald burns..." That's a 30% chance you're leaning on?
