Pokemon Nationals; What Do You Expect To See?

[TenCodeRiot]

Let's discuss builds, stuff we expect to see, etc. Who all is going? Hope to see all you cool cats there.

[Rogue]

Everyone leading with Thundurus and Landorus.

[TenCodeRiot]

(Jun 22, 2015, 01:59 PM)Rogue Wrote: Everyone leading with Thundurus and Landorus.

What are some good ways of countering them? I use Thundurus on 4 of my teams I think. They have both sort of become their own meta.

[Rogue]

Honestly, it's almost impossible to counter them. You have to factor in the other 4 pokemon they could have brought. Sure I can come up with some sort of perfect scenario like "They lead thundurus and Landorus, and I lead terrakion and Rotom-W. Rotom Hydro pumps Lando and Terrakion stone edges thundurus" But there's too many scenarios where it could go wrong. Say you miss both hydro and stone edge. Thundurus t-waves terrakion and Lando knocks off Rotom. Or say you will-o with rotom and you have a lum on your terrakion. Then what if Lando is scarfed, pops off an EQ to take out Terrakion; and thundurus taunts Rotom?

No matter what scenario in, they can technically always one up you. You can try the ice route to take out Lando, but a lot of players run Yache berry. Plus most mons with ice beam can be taken out by Landos vast movepool. Latios for example. Gets hit by Knock off/U-Turn. Suicune has ice beam, but that just makes Thundurus have a positive MU against you. Sure you can scarf something. But Thundurus could always thunder wave you or Lando could be scarfed himself. In the right hands of a competitive player with a strong team with mons like heatran/M-Kang, it's basically impossible to hard counter them without taking some losses/big damage.

Plus, if you focus too much on countering Lando/Thundur your team won't be good. It's more than just the amazing pressure these two give. It's about how easy it is to pivot into your other members. You take them both out but take damage from EQ/Get T-waved? M-Kang sweeps. You outspeed Lando and have Ice beam and a strong rock slide user? They switch into aegislash, wide guard your rock slide, and let thundurus t-wave play you.

Trust me, against a top player these mons are pretty stupid. But then again, leading Lando/Thundur is seen as scumbag move like dark void smeargle. so we may not see a lot of it.

[TenCodeRiot]

Wow, harsh. They are definitely a force to be reckoned with. As I said I have several teams with Thundurus. If he fits on to the team I usually run him. It's kind of sad to see the meta come down to him though as it basically becomes about praying that you don't get para haxed. Even if you don't it slows you down he's priority. He's certainly mean. Landorus I have less actual playtime with and the teams I have him on when I've used him he usually gets one hit KO'd by something. Currently my team is M-Salamence, Thundurus, Politoed, Ludicolo, Terrakion, Aegislash. I've just always liked rain teams.

[Hojunhu]

You're gonna see the cookie-cutter teams, those with the top 12 on BattleSpot, but you're going to see some weird things too. A lot more mixed attackers I think.

Also, I've been requested to breed a few down right stupidly good, off-the-wall sets on otherwise really meta Pokemon. Mild natured, scarfed Greninja being one of them.

[GiMYz]

Cresselia can do some work against both of them.. both Lando and Thundy can't do much damage while Cress is able to spam Ice Beam and Icy Wind. Assault Vest mons such as Conkeldurr and Scrafty can also stay on the field without fear. Swampert and Gastrodon are also interesting (but underused) choices.

[Rogue]

Not sure how Cress is an accurate counter. Knock off/U-turn do about half to cress, thunderbolt doing about 25% if its not heavily invested in spa. Not to mention Cress could always be t-waved and para'd.
Scrafty isn't a counter at all because of super power Landorus. Conk isn't a counter because of HP Flying Thundurus. I thought of using Swampert but intimidate from Lando make sure you live things like ice punch and 2hko with EQ.

There's a reason why they're the best duo, they'll always be putting in more damage. Like I said, sure you can always come up with a scenario like saying "Oh I'll just lead Conkeldurr & Cresselia, Cress will Ice beam Lando and Conk will ice punch thundurus (which wont kill either btw, because of intimidate and the sheer bulk of these mons) but then they protect lando and switch into Talonflame and you're back at a huge disadvantage.

Like I said, you don't really lose anything from leading with these 2.
My favorite leads to beat them are Bisharp Conk. Conk can live unless doubled up on/crit'd. and Bisharp can sucker Lando. But one time my bisharp got t-waved and para'd turn one and then Lando got to EQ and Thundurus lived an ice punch, letting me lose bisharp turn 1 and conk turn 2.

They aren't legitimately impossible beat. I'm just saying their the best duo and you don't lose much from leading them. They 9/10 can one up you together and if they can't, if your team is right you can pivot out. Just start with those 2, and build the last 4 around those mons. Bam. a team for nationals. I'm not just talking out of my butt either. It's always been like this, and I wish it wasn't the case. It is what it is. Adapt the best you can and outplay your opponent.

Edit: Who wants to call a team they'll see in the natonals? Calling it
M-Kang, Landorus, Thundurus, Bisharp, Sylveon, Heatran

[Rogue]

Double posting, but felt like it should be here out in the open since we're on the subject.
While I don't think their are any counters to the duo, there are some decent checks.

GMX pointed out 2 that work well together. Conkeldurr and Cresselia. While they both end up getting 2HKO'd by the duo, you can basically guarantee that one is taken out while the other is damaged. (This is possible Landorus doesn't have a Yache Berry/Assault Vest) Ice beam Lando with Cress, Ice Punch Thundurus with Conk. Mach punch Lando while ice beaming thundurus game 2. The mach punch is a roll if the lando is built bulky. But it's still a nice chance. It's not the best trade if Thundurus has HP-Flying, but it works.

Bisharp and Conkeldurr. I explained above. Defiant boost sucker punch Lando + Ice Punch Thundurus. Just like the last one, they won't be OHKO'd. Lando can live +1 SP even with a life orb if it's built bulky. Thundurus will be 2HKO'd by ice punch. EQ will KO bisharp and do a decent chunk to Conk. Conk will die to HP-flying from Thundurus too.

Terrakion and Latios. A tactic my sister uses a lot. Ice beam lando with Latios and stone edge Thundurus with Terrakion. This can be a problem if Lando is scarfed w/ knock off to OHKO Latios. My sister's is EV'd to have a chance to live, so there's that. Lando can also live Ice beam with Yache berry. Terrakion has 2 problems. It's basically begging to be thunder waved, and Lando can pop it with a EQ. Still, these are 2 good mons and they can make your opponent make a missplay if they don't understand the current fight.

Landorus and Thundurus. Just stone edge Thundurus with your Lando and HP Ice Landorus with your thundurus. WE MADE IT! S P E E D T I E S B O Y S

Granted, you could always over extend and lead with one of these pairs while your opponent leads 2 other mons that hard counter these. take this with a grain of salt, and please understand.

[GiMYz]

(Jun 22, 2015, 04:21 PM)Rogue Wrote: Bisharp

This. Prevention is better than cure. If you have Bisharp or (even better) Milotic, i'd assume there's no way the opponent is going to lead with Land-T, unless he is really sure to have way to stop a +2 SpA Milotic before taking too much unnecessary damage.

Team Preview does so much work if used correctly.. In a event such as a National i would always focus on building a solid looking team with more than one safe lead duo, just to put a lot of pressure on the opponent and play with timer and mind even before the battle starts. Anyway one shouldn't overestimate Team Preview power.. for example i've seen a lot of teams really weak to Choice Scarf Land-T just slapping a Milotic on their team only to scare it off from Team Preview.. it doesn't work this way: a decent player will always notice this flaw and he will bring Land-T in the back with the main objective of dealing with Milotic as soon as possible so that Landorus, at that point, can do what it wants.

Regarding the Conkeldurr + Cresselia lead, i think we should also consider the mind games for a possible Trick Room setup. I think that Thundurus would always go for the Taunt play on Cress, otherwise it would allow the opponent gaining too much momentum. If we talk about Scrafty, this pokemon offers Intimidate + Fake Out which puts both Lando-T and Thundy in the weird condition of not knowing who is gonna be the target, what Cresselia is going to do and so on.

There are a lot of other conjectures.. but Pokemon wouldn't be such an amazing competitive game if it wasn't for these countless combinations that we are trying to analyze :P