Greninja banned to Ubers in Smogon

[evilsabre]

(Jan 12, 2015, 11:45 AM)tygaa2 Wrote: @Rogue so your saying Greninja shoud not be allowed because if someone leads with it and you don't predict correctly you will be in a bad postion? Predicting that is part of the game and if that is what smogon wants to take away then that makes the "watering down" comment I made earlier is hard to argue against

tygaa its because in singles alot of the game revolves around switching to gain/keep momentum while in doubles we have protect and another pokemon can still apply offensive pressure letting you build, maintain or reverse the momentum that way. The thing is when you switch greninja will obviously attack damaging your switch in worst yet if greninja can't outspeed and ko from their they will just switch into a wall and wittle your team down this way. Before he got his ORAS coverage moves you had safe switching in the form of azumarill and a couple of others such as chansey and blissey. Unfortunately after ORAS azumarril and blissy are now useless counters vs gunk shot variants. If you swap in chansey you completely lose offensive pressure meaning free switch for the foe. While often i dislike smogon bans i can't really argue greninja breaks the game too much there to allow for all pokemon of that tier to be viable in that tier which is a key philosophy of smogon to enable all pokemon to be played competitively with an even chance of winning.

Smogon don't really water down they just sub divide in an attempt to make as many pokemon as possible viable in the singles game.


Edit:

(Jan 12, 2015, 12:05 PM)Eckley Wrote: Well that's changed my mind real quick haha

I've never played ubers, so my opinion was from an outside view. I thought with his low bas stats-  Compared to the legends - that he'd have a tough time, but from what you just said, he should be able to do fine. I know base stats aren't the only thing that make a pokemon good/bad, but like I said, I just thought compared to the pokemon in ubers he'd struggle a bit

eckley i had a friend who used a physical sweeper foretress in ubers .... trust me if that somehow worked i think greninja will manage just fine XD

[Rogue]

Evilsabre can always say what I want to say without it coming off as aggressive/mean ;-;

Thanks sabre!

I'm just gonna start labeling myself as the villain of team forum >.>

[evilsabre]

(Jan 12, 2015, 12:17 PM)Rogue Wrote: Evilsabre can always say what I want to say without it coming off as aggressive/mean ;-;

Thanks sabre!

I'm just gonna start labeling myself as the villain of team forum >.>

its been months since i played smogon as well i rage quit when they kept banning my mega's.... but i still get the concept greninja was a pain to deal with even back then i don't want to ever face him in singles now its just anti fun

A way to look on it as a vgc player is to take the no legend tourney we did recently and ask why did we do it? Well some of us think the legends overshadow other pokes and create a dull and a rather unfun game as a result i9 mean see some people reactions when an all mega team get far in the tourneys on twitch not many are excited that the team won.

[Eckley]

(Jan 12, 2015, 12:14 PM)naitre Wrote:

(Jan 12, 2015, 11:51 AM)Eckley Wrote: Don't really want to get involved in this, but I think ubers is a bit too much for Greninja. just my opinion though

PokeaimMD is arguably one of the best Smogon players (if not the best) and rocked Greninja in Ubers with no problem. He's gonna fit in just fine.

Yeah I realise now that anyone who is actually good can use him without trouble

I'm sorry if it looked like I was arguing btw, I've just never played ubers, so I thought it might be a bit much for him, but after what rouge said, I realised how stupid I was haha

[Rogue]

(Jan 12, 2015, 12:21 PM)Eckley Wrote:

(Jan 12, 2015, 12:14 PM)naitre Wrote:

(Jan 12, 2015, 11:51 AM)Eckley Wrote: Don't really want to get involved in this, but I think ubers is a bit too much for Greninja. just my opinion though

PokeaimMD is arguably one of the best Smogon players (if not the best) and rocked Greninja in Ubers with no problem. He's gonna fit in just fine.

Yeah I realise now that anyone who is actually good can use him without trouble

I'm sorry if it looked like I was arguing btw, I've just never played ubers, so I thought it might be a bit much for him, but after what rouge said, I realised how stupid I was haha

Oh shush! I didn't think you were arguing at all ahaha. I just thought you were curious, you're not stupid. :b

[tygaa2]

no one is arguing, just voicing opinions. I didn't take any offense by the comments and I hope everyone didn't take any from mine. Just because some peoples options differ doesn't mean we can't have a discussion about it :]
I respect the both of you as well!

[DanielJames]

(Jan 12, 2015, 11:14 AM)Rogue Wrote: I think some of you are missing the point. It wasn't banned to Ubers simply because "we couldn't find anything to beat it." We know that Guts Conkeldurr can almost OHKO with a mach punch before it changes typing. We know that Talonflame can OHKO it. Once again, thats not the problem.

Lets say I lead with Greninja and you lead with Conkeldurr. I know you're going to try and mach punch me, so I safely switch out into my tornadus. I take little damage, I out speed with this as well, and I'm now going to OHKO your Conkeldurr who threatened my Greninja.

Or different story. You lead with Talonflame and I lead with Greninja. I know you'll OHKO, so I switch out into Heatran. You literally can't touch my Heatran so lets say you switch out. I predict your switch and lay down stealth rocks. Now your Talonflame is almost useless thanks to the rocks. Even if you stay in and put up something like a swords dance, I'm running ancient power to OHKO your Talonflame.

Does that make more sense? It's not just the pokemon. It's how easy I can build around it. The small checks and counters you could list, all could easily be reverse countered by my other 5 Pokemon. There's no point in you having a counter for something, if I can counter your counter with ease. Because once I take out that 1-2 checks on your team, my Greninja is free to run wild.

(Jan 12, 2015, 11:45 AM)tygaa2 Wrote: @Rogue so your saying Greninja shoud not be allowed because if someone leads with it and you don't predict correctly you will be in a bad postion? Predicting that is part of the game and if that is what smogon wants to take away then that makes the "watering down" comment I made earlier is hard to argue against

I've also stated multiple time that I don't have anything against or "hate" smogon. Just don't agree with it

I was going to say pretty much what tygaa2 said here in regards to your comment I quoted here. Those are poor examples, Rouge. What your describing is good team building and prediction. It's a part of the game.

Let's say you lead off with Greninja and I lead off with Talonflame. I know you'll most likely switch out to Heatran since my Talonflame can't do anything to it so I switch out to my Swampert. I can now KO your Heatran with Earthquake unless you switch him out for another Pokémon and so on.

See, it works with anything.

[Rogue]

In all honesty, I think you're wrong there. Yes, you're correct in the way that predictions work both ways. But whats different is the RISK that it holds. Go ahead and make your prediction, but what if you're wrong? What if I don't switch? Your swampert just lost half health. Or even if I predicted that, and use grass knot. Your swampert is gone just from a bad prediction, and that was the the only thing on your team that can stop my heatran.

It's much more than what you're thinking, the predictions cost too much. You can't risk making lengthy predictions because if you're wrong you outright lose the entire match, and you can't tell me I'm wrong there.

Once again: Give me a team of 6 Pokemon that don't care about Greninja whatsoever and can still survive in an OU environment. If someone can do that for me, I'll praise you immensely. But even if you DID find something out like that, why should I HAVE to run that team of 6 Pokemon forever?

[DanielJames]

(Jan 12, 2015, 01:49 PM)Rogue Wrote: In all honesty, I think you're wrong there. Yes, you're correct in the way that predictions work both ways. But whats different is the RISK that it holds. Go ahead and make your prediction, but what if you're wrong? What if I don't switch? Your swampert just lost half health. Or even if I predicted that, and use grass knot. Your swampert is gone just from a bad prediction, and that was the the only thing on your team that can stop my heatran.

It's much more than what you're thinking, the predictions cost too much. You can't risk making lengthy predictions because if you're wrong you outright lose the entire match, and you can't tell me I'm wrong there.

Once again: Give me a team of 6 Pokemon that don't care about Greninja whatsoever and can still survive in an OU environment. If someone can do that for me, I'll praise you immensely. But even if you DID find something out like that, why should I HAVE to run that team of 6 Pokemon forever?

Greninja or not, if you make a bad prediction against any Pokémon and/or experienced player, you run the risk of putting yourself in a bad position. Again, it's part of the game and it comes down to Team Building 101. Building a diverse and well balanced team will put you in a good starting position, but the majority of the team's success is going to come down to the player's experience and their capability to make the right move at the right time. Greninja doesn't change that.

[Rogue]

Through that logic me making a bad prediction against someone with a Gogoat is the same as me making a bad prediction against someone with a Arceus.

It's not that Greninja "changes" Pokemon. It's the fact that it limits team building.

Simply telling me that I'm wrong and if you just "out skill" your opponent isn't enough. I need a better reason to why I'm wrong. You said my examples were poor yet you haven't actually given me a reason why Greninja shouldn't have been banned.

I don't want to endlessly argue with anyone. Give me a team that works well against Greninja and works perfectly in an OU environment. Then once you do give me a reason why I HAVE to run that exact team if I want to play OU, and why that's okay, and finally tell me how using that team promotes individuality. /: